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Thread: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

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Number of posts in this thread: 18 (In chronological order)

From: Sean Keegan
Date: Wed, Apr 10 2019 9:05PM
Subject: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
No previous message | Next message →

Hi - I just conducted an accessible PDF remediation workshop and
encountered numerous issues with the latest version of Acrobat Pro DC.
Specifically, the issues included:
1) When zoning text or images (or running the Make Accessible Wizard or
Autotagging the PDF), content would disappear or drop behind other elements.

2) If some text content were set as Background mistakenly, it was not
possible re-zone that text content and mark it as text (or heading) in the
Reading Order panel; that is, no tag was created.

I have had all these issues before, but I have not had these issues
recently with previous versions of Acrobat Pro (or even earlier versions of
Acrobat Pro DC). Trying to remediate the same PDFs using Acrobat XI worked
just fine, but the latest Pro DC seems to be causing problems.

Anyone else having issues similar to these?

Also - I've never gotten a decent workaround to the disappearing text
issue. Open to ideas.

thanks,
sean

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Wed, Apr 10 2019 11:32PM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

Yes, we too have noticed unexpected results from all of Adobe's products:
- PDF Maker plug-in for Word/Office
- Acrobat itself
- PDF Export utility in InDesign

Every time I teach an accessibility class, I don't know if I'll get the same
results as I did the day before the class. And the changes are usually
accessibility tag errors, not improvements.

If you're on the DC subscription (Adobe calls it "continuous release")
you're getting micro updates quite frequently. See the release notes here:
https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/release-note/release-notes-acrobat-reader.ht
ml

More details of the latest release are here:
https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/using/whats-new.html But nothing is
mentioned about accessibility issues or features.

The only way to get the problems fixed is to post something on
www.acrobat.uservoice.com UserVoice works on the concept of votes: the more
votes a bug or feature request gets, the quicker it might be addressed.

We're keeping track of the issues on our website to help people find the
posts and vote for them at www.pubcom.com/vote

As they say, vote early and often!

- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sean
Keegan
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 11:05 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

Hi - I just conducted an accessible PDF remediation workshop and encountered
numerous issues with the latest version of Acrobat Pro DC.
Specifically, the issues included:
1) When zoning text or images (or running the Make Accessible Wizard or
Autotagging the PDF), content would disappear or drop behind other elements.

2) If some text content were set as Background mistakenly, it was not
possible re-zone that text content and mark it as text (or heading) in the
Reading Order panel; that is, no tag was created.

I have had all these issues before, but I have not had these issues recently
with previous versions of Acrobat Pro (or even earlier versions of Acrobat
Pro DC). Trying to remediate the same PDFs using Acrobat XI worked just
fine, but the latest Pro DC seems to be causing problems.

Anyone else having issues similar to these?

Also - I've never gotten a decent workaround to the disappearing text issue.
Open to ideas.

thanks,
sean

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 4:53AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

As some of you know, I've been trying out Nuance PowerPDF Advanced and Foxit
Phantom for Business.

I had two documents that are forms which means a lot of underline and boxes
to visually represent where you enter information.

When I used the Acrobat Pro DC (current release/update) ability to auto tag
the documents, about 85% of the lines, boxes and bits of the background were
tagged as <figures> requiring Alt Text and only about 15% of the actual text
was tagged. When I deleted the Tags, went to Nuance's PowerPDF and retagged
the document, NONE of the background bits, lines or boxes were tagged. ONLY
the text on the page was tagged. I had minimal remediation to make the text
of the forms accessible (mostly rearranging the question order and
separating parts of a question to fit the form controls in).

This saved me hours of work I was facing trying to manually Tag the text in
the forms. Nuance PowerPDF does have a Forms Ribbon but I am on a deadline
so will try it out once this project is finished.

Foxit is trying to get me to not give up on their product but I really can't
face another 2-5 days of lost time trying to gain control of my computer, so
we are still talking about getting my money back.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 1:32 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

Yes, we too have noticed unexpected results from all of Adobe's products:
- PDF Maker plug-in for Word/Office
- Acrobat itself
- PDF Export utility in InDesign

Every time I teach an accessibility class, I don't know if I'll get the same
results as I did the day before the class. And the changes are usually
accessibility tag errors, not improvements.

If you're on the DC subscription (Adobe calls it "continuous release")
you're getting micro updates quite frequently. See the release notes here:
https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/release-note/release-notes-acrobat-reader.ht
ml

More details of the latest release are here:
https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/using/whats-new.html But nothing is
mentioned about accessibility issues or features.

The only way to get the problems fixed is to post something on
www.acrobat.uservoice.com UserVoice works on the concept of votes: the more
votes a bug or feature request gets, the quicker it might be addressed.

We're keeping track of the issues on our website to help people find the
posts and vote for them at www.pubcom.com/vote

As they say, vote early and often!

- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting .
training . development . design . sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at
www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Sean
Keegan
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 11:05 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

Hi - I just conducted an accessible PDF remediation workshop and encountered
numerous issues with the latest version of Acrobat Pro DC.
Specifically, the issues included:
1) When zoning text or images (or running the Make Accessible Wizard or
Autotagging the PDF), content would disappear or drop behind other elements.

2) If some text content were set as Background mistakenly, it was not
possible re-zone that text content and mark it as text (or heading) in the
Reading Order panel; that is, no tag was created.

I have had all these issues before, but I have not had these issues recently
with previous versions of Acrobat Pro (or even earlier versions of Acrobat
Pro DC). Trying to remediate the same PDFs using Acrobat XI worked just
fine, but the latest Pro DC seems to be causing problems.

Anyone else having issues similar to these?

Also - I've never gotten a decent workaround to the disappearing text issue.
Open to ideas.

thanks,
sean

http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 6:51AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

I haven't noticed new issues with the background/artifact tagging
feature in Acrobat Pro DC on the continuous release cycle. But as Bevi
suggests, there may have been an undocumented change in a "micro"
update, that I haven't noticed.

However, I have had issues with disappearing text before, and I have two
suggestions you might explore to deal with such issues.

First, if you somehow end up with real text marked as an artifact and
don't seem to be able to mark it or tag it as regular text any longer,
then you may be able to find that text in the Content panel and move it
out of its Artifact container and into the root of the Content panel.
Then you can try tagging it again either directly or by using the "Find"
-> "Unmarked Content" feature in the Tags Panel. I have found that
moving the actual content you want out of all containers so that it sits
as raw, content at the root level of the Content tree has pretty much
always allowed me to find and begin tagging that content once again.

Second, instead of using the Reading Order panel, you might consider
trying to re-order content directly in the Content panel. When I
remediate content these days, I almost never open the Reading Order
panel at all. I may use the Reading Order panel when I'm finished, just
to confirm that the order I've set in the Content panel is correct, but
other than that, I do pretty much all my remediation work in the Tags
panel and in the Content panel.

Having said that, I'm not sure that I would try to teach folks how to
manipulate the Content panel in an introductory PDF remediation
workshop. I would probably focus almost entirely on the Tags panel and
on ensuring that the tag structure and order is correct in the Tags
panel. I would tell them basically to ignore the Reading Order panel
altogether, and working with the Content panel directly and moving
content around in that panel is moving towards advanced PDF remediation
techniques I think.

Phil.

Philip Kiff
D4K Communications

On 2019-04-11 01:32, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> Yes, we too have noticed unexpected results from all of Adobe's products:
> [....]
>
> If you're on the DC subscription (Adobe calls it "continuous release")
> you're getting micro updates quite frequently.
> [....]
On 2019-04-10 23:05, Sean Keegan wrote:
> Hi - I just conducted an accessible PDF remediation workshop and
> encountered numerous issues with the latest version of Acrobat Pro DC.
> Specifically, the issues included:
> 1) When zoning text or images (or running the Make Accessible Wizard or
> Autotagging the PDF), content would disappear or drop behind other elements.
>
> 2) If some text content were set as Background mistakenly, it was not
> possible re-zone that text content and mark it as text (or heading) in the
> Reading Order panel; that is, no tag was created.
>
> I have had all these issues before, but I have not had these issues
> recently with previous versions of Acrobat Pro (or even earlier versions of
> Acrobat Pro DC). Trying to remediate the same PDFs using Acrobat XI worked
> just fine, but the latest Pro DC seems to be causing problems.
>
> Anyone else having issues similar to these?
>
> Also - I've never gotten a decent workaround to the disappearing text
> issue. Open to ideas.
>
> thanks,
> sean
> > > >

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 7:05AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

Regarding the content panel -- you do have to be very careful as deleting something there will delete it from the document. But yes, sometimes you will find that the content panel order was moved in such a way that something is now hidden or overlapped in a way visually that it should not be and the only way to fix it is to adjust the content panel -- but this is something that an experience person should do and I would save a copy of the pdf with current tags first if you need to go back to it.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila, CPWA
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office
Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 8:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


I haven't noticed new issues with the background/artifact tagging feature in Acrobat Pro DC on the continuous release cycle. But as Bevi suggests, there may have been an undocumented change in a "micro"
update, that I haven't noticed.

However, I have had issues with disappearing text before, and I have two suggestions you might explore to deal with such issues.

First, if you somehow end up with real text marked as an artifact and don't seem to be able to mark it or tag it as regular text any longer, then you may be able to find that text in the Content panel and move it out of its Artifact container and into the root of the Content panel.
Then you can try tagging it again either directly or by using the "Find"
-> "Unmarked Content" feature in the Tags Panel. I have found that
moving the actual content you want out of all containers so that it sits as raw, content at the root level of the Content tree has pretty much always allowed me to find and begin tagging that content once again.

Second, instead of using the Reading Order panel, you might consider trying to re-order content directly in the Content panel. When I remediate content these days, I almost never open the Reading Order panel at all. I may use the Reading Order panel when I'm finished, just to confirm that the order I've set in the Content panel is correct, but other than that, I do pretty much all my remediation work in the Tags panel and in the Content panel.

Having said that, I'm not sure that I would try to teach folks how to manipulate the Content panel in an introductory PDF remediation workshop. I would probably focus almost entirely on the Tags panel and on ensuring that the tag structure and order is correct in the Tags panel. I would tell them basically to ignore the Reading Order panel altogether, and working with the Content panel directly and moving content around in that panel is moving towards advanced PDF remediation techniques I think.

Phil.

Philip Kiff
D4K Communications

On 2019-04-11 01:32, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> Yes, we too have noticed unexpected results from all of Adobe's products:
> [....]
>
> If you're on the DC subscription (Adobe calls it "continuous release")
> you're getting micro updates quite frequently.
> [....]
On 2019-04-10 23:05, Sean Keegan wrote:
> Hi - I just conducted an accessible PDF remediation workshop and
> encountered numerous issues with the latest version of Acrobat Pro DC.
> Specifically, the issues included:
> 1) When zoning text or images (or running the Make Accessible Wizard
> or Autotagging the PDF), content would disappear or drop behind other elements.
>
> 2) If some text content were set as Background mistakenly, it was not
> possible re-zone that text content and mark it as text (or heading) in
> the Reading Order panel; that is, no tag was created.
>
> I have had all these issues before, but I have not had these issues
> recently with previous versions of Acrobat Pro (or even earlier
> versions of Acrobat Pro DC). Trying to remediate the same PDFs using
> Acrobat XI worked just fine, but the latest Pro DC seems to be causing problems.
>
> Anyone else having issues similar to these?
>
> Also - I've never gotten a decent workaround to the disappearing text
> issue. Open to ideas.
>
> thanks,
> sean
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 7:27AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

Just to clarify...it wasn't that text in the two documents was hidden in any
way...it just wasn't tagged at all. As I say, it was as if the auto tagging
tool reversed its "orders" and tagged all the background bits/Artifacts and
ignored the fact that there was text on the page.

PowerPDF did what it was supposed to do...Tag the text/content and NOT the
background bits, symbols and lines/Artifacts.

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
Jonathan Avila
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:06 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

Regarding the content panel -- you do have to be very careful as deleting
something there will delete it from the document. But yes, sometimes you
will find that the content panel order was moved in such a way that
something is now hidden or overlapped in a way visually that it should not
be and the only way to fix it is to adjust the content panel -- but this is
something that an experience person should do and I would save a copy of the
pdf with current tags first if you need to go back to it.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila, CPWA
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office
Visit us online:
Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 8:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
content is safe.


I haven't noticed new issues with the background/artifact tagging feature in
Acrobat Pro DC on the continuous release cycle. But as Bevi suggests, there
may have been an undocumented change in a "micro"
update, that I haven't noticed.

However, I have had issues with disappearing text before, and I have two
suggestions you might explore to deal with such issues.

First, if you somehow end up with real text marked as an artifact and don't
seem to be able to mark it or tag it as regular text any longer, then you
may be able to find that text in the Content panel and move it out of its
Artifact container and into the root of the Content panel.
Then you can try tagging it again either directly or by using the "Find"
-> "Unmarked Content" feature in the Tags Panel. I have found that
moving the actual content you want out of all containers so that it sits as
raw, content at the root level of the Content tree has pretty much always
allowed me to find and begin tagging that content once again.

Second, instead of using the Reading Order panel, you might consider trying
to re-order content directly in the Content panel. When I remediate content
these days, I almost never open the Reading Order panel at all. I may use
the Reading Order panel when I'm finished, just to confirm that the order
I've set in the Content panel is correct, but other than that, I do pretty
much all my remediation work in the Tags panel and in the Content panel.

Having said that, I'm not sure that I would try to teach folks how to
manipulate the Content panel in an introductory PDF remediation workshop. I
would probably focus almost entirely on the Tags panel and on ensuring that
the tag structure and order is correct in the Tags panel. I would tell them
basically to ignore the Reading Order panel altogether, and working with the
Content panel directly and moving content around in that panel is moving
towards advanced PDF remediation techniques I think.

Phil.

Philip Kiff
D4K Communications

On 2019-04-11 01:32, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> Yes, we too have noticed unexpected results from all of Adobe's products:
> [....]
>
> If you're on the DC subscription (Adobe calls it "continuous release")
> you're getting micro updates quite frequently.
> [....]
On 2019-04-10 23:05, Sean Keegan wrote:
> Hi - I just conducted an accessible PDF remediation workshop and
> encountered numerous issues with the latest version of Acrobat Pro DC.
> Specifically, the issues included:
> 1) When zoning text or images (or running the Make Accessible Wizard
> or Autotagging the PDF), content would disappear or drop behind other
elements.
>
> 2) If some text content were set as Background mistakenly, it was not
> possible re-zone that text content and mark it as text (or heading) in
> the Reading Order panel; that is, no tag was created.
>
> I have had all these issues before, but I have not had these issues
> recently with previous versions of Acrobat Pro (or even earlier
> versions of Acrobat Pro DC). Trying to remediate the same PDFs using
> Acrobat XI worked just fine, but the latest Pro DC seems to be causing
problems.
>
> Anyone else having issues similar to these?
>
> Also - I've never gotten a decent workaround to the disappearing text
> issue. Open to ideas.
>
> thanks,
> sean
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 7:25AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

It wasn't a matter of the text being mixed up in the PathPath's but that the
auto tagging tool in Acrobat seemed to reverse itself and consider the
Artifacts as needing Tags and the text as Artifacts. I started going through
the Content Panel but found that I was making everything an Artifact and had
no text at the end of the task...I would have had to manually tag all of the
text.

I never use the Order Panel unless I think that content/text has not been
tagged. I use it as sort of a satellite view of the document but focus on
the Tags Tree and the Content Panel if necessary.

I agree about teaching the Content Panel, but in working through an exercise
with my class in accessible media design, we all had the same document, the
same version of Acrobat Pro DC and some students got table gridlines tagged
as <Span>, <Figure> or just floating in the tags Tree with no apparent
Tag...sometimes the opportunity for learning lands in front of you,
especially when working on assignments for marks!

Cheers, Karen

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 8:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

I haven't noticed new issues with the background/artifact tagging feature in
Acrobat Pro DC on the continuous release cycle. But as Bevi suggests, there
may have been an undocumented change in a "micro"
update, that I haven't noticed.

However, I have had issues with disappearing text before, and I have two
suggestions you might explore to deal with such issues.

First, if you somehow end up with real text marked as an artifact and don't
seem to be able to mark it or tag it as regular text any longer, then you
may be able to find that text in the Content panel and move it out of its
Artifact container and into the root of the Content panel.
Then you can try tagging it again either directly or by using the "Find"
-> "Unmarked Content" feature in the Tags Panel. I have found that
moving the actual content you want out of all containers so that it sits as
raw, content at the root level of the Content tree has pretty much always
allowed me to find and begin tagging that content once again.

Second, instead of using the Reading Order panel, you might consider trying
to re-order content directly in the Content panel. When I remediate content
these days, I almost never open the Reading Order panel at all. I may use
the Reading Order panel when I'm finished, just to confirm that the order
I've set in the Content panel is correct, but other than that, I do pretty
much all my remediation work in the Tags panel and in the Content panel.

Having said that, I'm not sure that I would try to teach folks how to
manipulate the Content panel in an introductory PDF remediation workshop. I
would probably focus almost entirely on the Tags panel and on ensuring that
the tag structure and order is correct in the Tags panel. I would tell them
basically to ignore the Reading Order panel altogether, and working with the
Content panel directly and moving content around in that panel is moving
towards advanced PDF remediation techniques I think.

Phil.

Philip Kiff
D4K Communications

On 2019-04-11 01:32, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> Yes, we too have noticed unexpected results from all of Adobe's products:
> [....]
>
> If you're on the DC subscription (Adobe calls it "continuous release")
> you're getting micro updates quite frequently.
> [....]
On 2019-04-10 23:05, Sean Keegan wrote:
> Hi - I just conducted an accessible PDF remediation workshop and
> encountered numerous issues with the latest version of Acrobat Pro DC.
> Specifically, the issues included:
> 1) When zoning text or images (or running the Make Accessible Wizard
> or Autotagging the PDF), content would disappear or drop behind other
elements.
>
> 2) If some text content were set as Background mistakenly, it was not
> possible re-zone that text content and mark it as text (or heading) in
> the Reading Order panel; that is, no tag was created.
>
> I have had all these issues before, but I have not had these issues
> recently with previous versions of Acrobat Pro (or even earlier
> versions of Acrobat Pro DC). Trying to remediate the same PDFs using
> Acrobat XI worked just fine, but the latest Pro DC seems to be causing
problems.
>
> Anyone else having issues similar to these?
>
> Also - I've never gotten a decent workaround to the disappearing text
> issue. Open to ideas.
>
> thanks,
> sean
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

From: Larry Jones
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 9:16AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

I am new to the list. I was told the acrobat order panel was connected to
Braille output. Is this so?

We have found changes needed to this order with images. Did we do the wrong
thing and should change in the content panel?

Larry

---------- message ---------
From: Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date: Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >


It wasn't a matter of the text being mixed up in the PathPath's but that the
auto tagging tool in Acrobat seemed to reverse itself and consider the
Artifacts as needing Tags and the text as Artifacts. I started going through
the Content Panel but found that I was making everything an Artifact and had
no text at the end of the task...I would have had to manually tag all of the
text.

I never use the Order Panel unless I think that content/text has not been
tagged. I use it as sort of a satellite view of the document but focus on
the Tags Tree and the Content Panel if necessary.

I agree about teaching the Content Panel, but in working through an exercise
with my class in accessible media design, we all had the same document, the
same version of Acrobat Pro DC and some students got table gridlines tagged
as <Span>, <Figure> or just floating in the tags Tree with no apparent
Tag...sometimes the opportunity for learning lands in front of you,
especially when working on assignments for marks!

Cheers, Karen

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 9:26AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

I have also heard that there are some assistive technologies that
continue to use an order that matches what is shown in the Order panel,
so if you are targetting those devices then you can continue to use the
Order panel to verify that order.

However, I believe you will find that there is actually no difference
between the order in the Order panel and the order in the Content panel.
It is just that the Order panel only shows items that have tags applied,
whereas the Content panel shows all the objects in the file regardless
of whether they are tagged or not.

Over the years, many people have found that if they follow Adobe's
instructions on how to order content using primarily the Order panel,
then they will sometimes end up with a file where text or graphics have
disappeared from view or a file that seems otherwise corrupted.

So some people who do advanced remediation of PDFs have therefore
decided that they can achieve the exact same desired ordering shown in
the Order panel without actually using the Order panel to re-order the
containers in the Content tree. If you re-order the content directly in
the Content tree, then I think it will also be re-ordered in the Order
panel.

Phil.

Philip Kiff
D4K Communications

On 2019-04-11 11:16, Larry Jones wrote:
> I am new to the list. I was told the acrobat order panel was connected to
> Braille output. Is this so?
>
> We have found changes needed to this order with images. Did we do the wrong
> thing and should change in the content panel?
>
> Larry
>
> ---------- message ---------
> From: Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date: Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 8:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
> It wasn't a matter of the text being mixed up in the PathPath's but that the
> auto tagging tool in Acrobat seemed to reverse itself and consider the
> Artifacts as needing Tags and the text as Artifacts. I started going through
> the Content Panel but found that I was making everything an Artifact and had
> no text at the end of the task...I would have had to manually tag all of the
> text.
>
> I never use the Order Panel unless I think that content/text has not been
> tagged. I use it as sort of a satellite view of the document but focus on
> the Tags Tree and the Content Panel if necessary.
>
> I agree about teaching the Content Panel, but in working through an exercise
> with my class in accessible media design, we all had the same document, the
> same version of Acrobat Pro DC and some students got table gridlines tagged
> as <Span>, <Figure> or just floating in the tags Tree with no apparent
> Tag...sometimes the opportunity for learning lands in front of you,
> especially when working on assignments for marks!
>
> Cheers, Karen
> > > >

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 9:32AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

One more thing, just to clarify. The sequence in the Tags panel is the
order that is used by the vast majority of assistive technology. And the
order in the tags panel is the one that is required to be correct if you
want to meet the PDF/UA standard. Ideally, the order in the Tags panel
matches the order in the Order panel and that in turn should match the
order in the Content panel. However, due to the nature of the PDF
format, it is sometimes impossible for content to appear correctly while
maintaining a correct reading order in the Order and Content panels. By
contrast, it should ALWAYS be possible to produce a correct reading
order in the Tags panel.

Phil.

On 2019-04-11 11:26, Philip Kiff wrote:
> I have also heard that there are some assistive technologies that
> continue to use an order that matches what is shown in the Order
> panel, so if you are targetting those devices then you can continue to
> use the Order panel to verify that order.
>
> However, I believe you will find that there is actually no difference
> between the order in the Order panel and the order in the Content
> panel. It is just that the Order panel only shows items that have tags
> applied, whereas the Content panel shows all the objects in the file
> regardless of whether they are tagged or not.
>
> Over the years, many people have found that if they follow Adobe's
> instructions on how to order content using primarily the Order panel,
> then they will sometimes end up with a file where text or graphics
> have disappeared from view or a file that seems otherwise corrupted.
>
> So some people who do advanced remediation of PDFs have therefore
> decided that they can achieve the exact same desired ordering shown in
> the Order panel without actually using the Order panel to re-order the
> containers in the Content tree. If you re-order the content directly
> in the Content tree, then I think it will also be re-ordered in the
> Order panel.
>
> Phil.
>
> Philip Kiff
> D4K Communications
>
> On 2019-04-11 11:16, Larry Jones wrote:
>> I am new to the list. I was told the acrobat order panel was
>> connected to
>> Braille output. Is this so?
>>
>> We have found changes needed to this order with images. Did we do the
>> wrong
>> thing and should change in the content panel?
>>
>> Larry
>>
>> ---------- message ---------
>> From: Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Date: Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 8:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>
>>
>> It wasn't a matter of the text being mixed up in the PathPath's but
>> that the
>> auto tagging tool in Acrobat seemed to reverse itself and consider the
>> Artifacts as needing Tags and the text as Artifacts. I started going
>> through
>> the Content Panel but found that I was making everything an Artifact
>> and had
>> no text at the end of the task...I would have had to manually tag all
>> of the
>> text.
>>
>> I never use the Order Panel unless I think that content/text has not
>> been
>> tagged. I use it as sort of a satellite view of the document but
>> focus on
>> the Tags Tree and the Content Panel if necessary.
>>
>> I agree about teaching the Content Panel, but in working through an
>> exercise
>> with my class in accessible media design, we all had the same
>> document, the
>> same version of Acrobat Pro DC and some students got table gridlines
>> tagged
>> as <Span>, <Figure> or just floating in the tags Tree with no apparent
>> Tag...sometimes the opportunity for learning lands in front of you,
>> especially when working on assignments for marks!
>>
>> Cheers, Karen
>> >> >> >> > > > >

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 9:42AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you for adding that, Phil.

The sequence of objects (which is what Acrobat’s order panel shows) is - by design - irrelevant to accessibility… its relevance arises when we talk about software so old and/or feeble that it has no right to claim support for PDF at all.

At some point implementations have to catch up with reality. Tagged PDF has been around for almost 20 years… what is the excuse for implementations that ignore them? Why is such software tolerated?

Duff.


> On Apr 11, 2019, at 11:32, Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> One more thing, just to clarify. The sequence in the Tags panel is the order that is used by the vast majority of assistive technology. And the order in the tags panel is the one that is required to be correct if you want to meet the PDF/UA standard. Ideally, the order in the Tags panel matches the order in the Order panel and that in turn should match the order in the Content panel. However, due to the nature of the PDF format, it is sometimes impossible for content to appear correctly while maintaining a correct reading order in the Order and Content panels. By contrast, it should ALWAYS be possible to produce a correct reading order in the Tags panel.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-04-11 11:26, Philip Kiff wrote:
>> I have also heard that there are some assistive technologies that continue to use an order that matches what is shown in the Order panel, so if you are targetting those devices then you can continue to use the Order panel to verify that order.
>>
>> However, I believe you will find that there is actually no difference between the order in the Order panel and the order in the Content panel. It is just that the Order panel only shows items that have tags applied, whereas the Content panel shows all the objects in the file regardless of whether they are tagged or not.
>>
>> Over the years, many people have found that if they follow Adobe's instructions on how to order content using primarily the Order panel, then they will sometimes end up with a file where text or graphics have disappeared from view or a file that seems otherwise corrupted.
>>
>> So some people who do advanced remediation of PDFs have therefore decided that they can achieve the exact same desired ordering shown in the Order panel without actually using the Order panel to re-order the containers in the Content tree. If you re-order the content directly in the Content tree, then I think it will also be re-ordered in the Order panel.
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>> Philip Kiff
>> D4K Communications
>>
>> On 2019-04-11 11:16, Larry Jones wrote:
>>> I am new to the list. I was told the acrobat order panel was connected to
>>> Braille output. Is this so?
>>>
>>> We have found changes needed to this order with images. Did we do the wrong
>>> thing and should change in the content panel?
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>> ---------- message ---------
>>> From: Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> Date: Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 8:41 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>>
>>>
>>> It wasn't a matter of the text being mixed up in the PathPath's but that the
>>> auto tagging tool in Acrobat seemed to reverse itself and consider the
>>> Artifacts as needing Tags and the text as Artifacts. I started going through
>>> the Content Panel but found that I was making everything an Artifact and had
>>> no text at the end of the task...I would have had to manually tag all of the
>>> text.
>>>
>>> I never use the Order Panel unless I think that content/text has not been
>>> tagged. I use it as sort of a satellite view of the document but focus on
>>> the Tags Tree and the Content Panel if necessary.
>>>
>>> I agree about teaching the Content Panel, but in working through an exercise
>>> with my class in accessible media design, we all had the same document, the
>>> same version of Acrobat Pro DC and some students got table gridlines tagged
>>> as <Span>, <Figure> or just floating in the tags Tree with no apparent
>>> Tag...sometimes the opportunity for learning lands in front of you,
>>> especially when working on assignments for marks!
>>>
>>> Cheers, Karen
>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > >

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 11:23AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

Duff wrote: "Tagged PDF has been around for almost 20 years… what is the excuse for implementations that ignore them? Why is such software tolerated?"

Not defending the A T software and hardware manufacturers, but we really didn't give them a workable, defined specification about how to do this until PDF/UA-1 was released in 2012, 7 years ago. And up until 2008, PDF was a proprietary file format owned and controlled by Adobe so it was difficult for any 3rd party software or technology to process it, let alone A T.

Many of today's assistive technologies have roots going back before there was even a tag tree in PDF, so they bear the cost of substantially overhauling their technologies to work with today's standards. Do they have a large enough market (and with it, the profit margins) to finance the R & D for an extensive overhaul?

Are their customers asking for this? Are they willing to pay for the new technology, ditching their old versions? Many people have limited discretionary income, so if a braille embosser from 2005 is still working for them, they might not feel the need to replace it.

Finally, how well did we, the accessibility community and organizations, reach out and support the manufacturers in making these changes?

Personally, I'm not going to be so cavalier in trouncing any of the stakeholders. We all live in glass houses, after all <grin>.

— — —
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter – Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog

From: Duff Johnson
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 11:44AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

JAWS supported tagged PDF back in 2001.

You aren’t wrong.... there are glass houses everywhere indeed. Support, even for HTML, leaves much to be desired.

BUT... completely ignoring tags in PDF is different. It means, specifically, not even trying.

Sent from a mobile device. Please excuse the brevity and/or errors.

> On Apr 11, 2019, at 13:23, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Duff wrote: "Tagged PDF has been around for almost 20 years… what is the excuse for implementations that ignore them? Why is such software tolerated?"
>
> Not defending the A T software and hardware manufacturers, but we really didn't give them a workable, defined specification about how to do this until PDF/UA-1 was released in 2012, 7 years ago. And up until 2008, PDF was a proprietary file format owned and controlled by Adobe so it was difficult for any 3rd party software or technology to process it, let alone A T.
>
> Many of today's assistive technologies have roots going back before there was even a tag tree in PDF, so they bear the cost of substantially overhauling their technologies to work with today's standards. Do they have a large enough market (and with it, the profit margins) to finance the R & D for an extensive overhaul?
>
> Are their customers asking for this? Are they willing to pay for the new technology, ditching their old versions? Many people have limited discretionary income, so if a braille embosser from 2005 is still working for them, they might not feel the need to replace it.
>
> Finally, how well did we, the accessibility community and organizations, reach out and support the manufacturers in making these changes?
>
> Personally, I'm not going to be so cavalier in trouncing any of the stakeholders. We all live in glass houses, after all <grin>.
>
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> — — —
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> — — —
> Latest blog-newsletter – Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog
>
> > > >

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 11:46AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

+1 to what Phil wrote below.

- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
Philip Kiff
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:27 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; Larry Jones
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

I have also heard that there are some assistive technologies that continue
to use an order that matches what is shown in the Order panel, so if you are
targetting those devices then you can continue to use the Order panel to
verify that order.

However, I believe you will find that there is actually no difference
between the order in the Order panel and the order in the Content panel.
It is just that the Order panel only shows items that have tags applied,
whereas the Content panel shows all the objects in the file regardless of
whether they are tagged or not.

Over the years, many people have found that if they follow Adobe's
instructions on how to order content using primarily the Order panel, then
they will sometimes end up with a file where text or graphics have
disappeared from view or a file that seems otherwise corrupted.

So some people who do advanced remediation of PDFs have therefore decided
that they can achieve the exact same desired ordering shown in the Order
panel without actually using the Order panel to re-order the containers in
the Content tree. If you re-order the content directly in the Content tree,
then I think it will also be re-ordered in the Order panel.

Phil.

Philip Kiff
D4K Communications

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 11:46AM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

Larry, older Braille technologies work with the Order panel.
Newer ones work with the Tags panel, as mandated by the PDF/UA-1 standards.

Only the Tags panel is required for accessibility compliance.

But in reality, end users might use an older technology or a generic
e-reader, so my firm's philosophy is to ensure that the Tags panel is fully
accessible and in compliance, and we attempt to make the Order panel match
it as closely as possible.

This is especially critical in academia where full access to education
materials is the law. If a student uses a low-end tablet with a free app for
reading PDFs, the school must have documents that will work with that. The
good Order panel can be a solution.

With part of my family being genetically predisposed to macular
degeneration, I've worked for many years with those going through vision
loss. Support services (senior centers, social workers, and associations)
often teach their clients how to use Acrobat's Reflow utility (View / Zoom /
Reflow). It's free, built into all versions of Acrobat including the free
Reader, and acts like a e-Book allowing the user to zoom the text to a size
that works for their vision.

Summary: meet the law via the Tags panel.
But be smart and get the Order panel into good enough shape, too. Or the
Content panel, which gives a deeper view of all of the PDF's elements than
the Order panel does, but they both do the same thing.

-Bevi

- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Larry
Jones
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:16 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

I am new to the list. I was told the acrobat order panel was connected to
Braille output. Is this so?

We have found changes needed to this order with images. Did we do the wrong
thing and should change in the content panel?

Larry

From: Karlen Communications
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 1:34PM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

If you look at my research, people responding to my annual surveys, both people with disabilities who need to read PDF and people remediating PDF to be accessible, PDF is still the bane of everyone's existence due to inconsistent tagging, lack of tagging, time spent in tagging, lack of headings for navigation, lack of sequential headings and each time I run the surveys, either HTML or EPUB are mentioned as a file format less inaccessible than PDF.

"we" still have a long way to go to sell the format as a viable accessible format for people with disabilities who use adaptive technology to access digital content. Given the plethora of PDF out there that aren't tagged, "we" encounter those more often than we encounter PDF that we can actually read.

One example I give is of a book chapter I contributed to last year. I had to research digital accessibility and inclusion and of the 70, yes seventy, PDF documents I found related to digital accessibility and inclusion of people with disabilities, 5 were tagged, 3 just tagged and let loose on the web so were unreadable and only 2 were tagged in a way that I could read them and have a coherent view of what the document author was trying to say.

The irony was not lost on me.

One of the other common comments in my surveys from both people with disabilities and PDF remediators is that no one is listening to our needs.

My guess would be that there is also a gap in communication among all stakeholders in this conversation that goes unattended.

Cheers, Karen


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 1:23 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

Duff wrote: "Tagged PDF has been around for almost 20 years… what is the excuse for implementations that ignore them? Why is such software tolerated?"

Not defending the A T software and hardware manufacturers, but we really didn't give them a workable, defined specification about how to do this until PDF/UA-1 was released in 2012, 7 years ago. And up until 2008, PDF was a proprietary file format owned and controlled by Adobe so it was difficult for any 3rd party software or technology to process it, let alone A T.

Many of today's assistive technologies have roots going back before there was even a tag tree in PDF, so they bear the cost of substantially overhauling their technologies to work with today's standards. Do they have a large enough market (and with it, the profit margins) to finance the R & D for an extensive overhaul?

Are their customers asking for this? Are they willing to pay for the new technology, ditching their old versions? Many people have limited discretionary income, so if a braille embosser from 2005 is still working for them, they might not feel the need to replace it.

Finally, how well did we, the accessibility community and organizations, reach out and support the manufacturers in making these changes?

Personally, I'm not going to be so cavalier in trouncing any of the stakeholders. We all live in glass houses, after all <grin>.

— — —
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = — — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes — — — Latest blog-newsletter – Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, Apr 11 2019 3:39PM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | Next message →

> I am new to the list. I was told the acrobat order panel was connected to Braille output. Is this so?

One guess is that the person was saying if you emboss a PDF or save to text the content order will be used over the tags order.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
Level Access
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 office

Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog



The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.



-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Larry Jones
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:16 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


I am new to the list. I was told the acrobat order panel was connected to
Braille output. Is this so?

We have found changes needed to this order with images. Did we do the wrong
thing and should change in the content panel?

Larry

---------- message ---------
From: Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date: Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >


It wasn't a matter of the text being mixed up in the PathPath's but that the
auto tagging tool in Acrobat seemed to reverse itself and consider the
Artifacts as needing Tags and the text as Artifacts. I started going through
the Content Panel but found that I was making everything an Artifact and had
no text at the end of the task...I would have had to manually tag all of the
text.

I never use the Order Panel unless I think that content/text has not been
tagged. I use it as sort of a satellite view of the document but focus on
the Tags Tree and the Content Panel if necessary.

I agree about teaching the Content Panel, but in working through an exercise
with my class in accessible media design, we all had the same document, the
same version of Acrobat Pro DC and some students got table gridlines tagged
as <Span>, <Figure> or just floating in the tags Tree with no apparent
Tag...sometimes the opportunity for learning lands in front of you,
especially when working on assignments for marks!

Cheers, Karen

From: Larry Jones
Date: Fri, Apr 12 2019 4:38PM
Subject: Re: Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
← Previous message | No next message

Thank you everyone.

We work with people who use older technology, braille especially We are
relatively new to adobe, and all the levels are very complexing. Now we
understand them better,

Larry

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 4:39 PM Jonathan Avila < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> > I am new to the list. I was told the acrobat order panel was connected
> to Braille output. Is this so?
>
> One guess is that the person was saying if you emboss a PDF or save to
> text the content order will be used over the tags order.
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jonathan Avila
> Chief Accessibility Officer
> Level Access
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog
>
>
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney privileged
> and/or confidential information intended for the use of the individual or
> entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination,
> distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of Larry Jones
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:16 AM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
> I am new to the list. I was told the acrobat order panel was connected to
> Braille output. Is this so?
>
> We have found changes needed to this order with images. Did we do the wrong
> thing and should change in the content panel?
>
> Larry
>
> ---------- message ---------
> From: Karlen Communications < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date: Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 8:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Tagging issues with Acrobat Pro DC
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
> It wasn't a matter of the text being mixed up in the PathPath's but that
> the
> auto tagging tool in Acrobat seemed to reverse itself and consider the
> Artifacts as needing Tags and the text as Artifacts. I started going
> through
> the Content Panel but found that I was making everything an Artifact and
> had
> no text at the end of the task...I would have had to manually tag all of
> the
> text.
>
> I never use the Order Panel unless I think that content/text has not been
> tagged. I use it as sort of a satellite view of the document but focus on
> the Tags Tree and the Content Panel if necessary.
>
> I agree about teaching the Content Panel, but in working through an
> exercise
> with my class in accessible media design, we all had the same document, the
> same version of Acrobat Pro DC and some students got table gridlines tagged
> as <Span>, <Figure> or just floating in the tags Tree with no apparent
> Tag...sometimes the opportunity for learning lands in front of you,
> especially when working on assignments for marks!
>
> Cheers, Karen
> > > > > > > > >