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Number of posts in this thread: 18 (In chronological order)

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Tue, May 28 2019 7:34AM
Subject: MathML and simple maths content
No previous message | Next message →

Hi all,

Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
acceptable?

I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder if
plain text would provide more consistent results.

Thanks, Isabel

From: L Snider
Date: Tue, May 28 2019 9:12AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Isabel,

I would be curious to see what answers you get, as I know in EPUBs best
practice (right now) is to do MathML AND plain text summaries (or whatever
can be done in terms of explanations). I don't work with math on websites,
so would love to know more about whether the two mesh or not.

Cheers

Lisa

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 8:34 AM Isabel Holdsworth < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
> additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
> acceptable?
>
> I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
> screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder if
> plain text would provide more consistent results.
>
> Thanks, Isabel
> > > > >

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Wed, May 29 2019 1:58AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Lisa,

I'm testing MathML with three browsers and getting inconsistent
results. IE11 seems to work best, then Firefox, but JAWS and Chrome
seem to provide the info to screenreaders sometimes and not others.
It's frustrating, as I don't know what to suggest to our customer
other than to ensure that JAWS is always paired with IE11.

Cheers, Isabel

On 28/05/2019, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Isabel,
>
> I would be curious to see what answers you get, as I know in EPUBs best
> practice (right now) is to do MathML AND plain text summaries (or whatever
> can be done in terms of explanations). I don't work with math on websites,
> so would love to know more about whether the two mesh or not.
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 8:34 AM Isabel Holdsworth
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
>> additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
>> acceptable?
>>
>> I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
>> screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder if
>> plain text would provide more consistent results.
>>
>> Thanks, Isabel
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >

From: Bim Egan
Date: Wed, May 29 2019 2:50AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Isabel,

I did a little research on this for a client, and found the following that
may be useful.

WIRIS Math Type (equation editor and image producer:
https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/start

It's engine not only produces an image, but also the alt text that I thought
made the equation very clear.

There's an example on one of their tutorial pages at:
https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/mathtype_desktop/basic_tutorials

HTH,

Bim
-------------
Bim Egan
Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
Personal Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Skype ID: bim.accessequals

Coordinator: Describe Online
W: www.describe-online.com
E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
----------------------------------------
Partner: AccessEquals
W: www.accessequals.com
E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
Of Isabel Holdsworth
Sent: 29 May 2019 08:58
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content

Hi Lisa,

I'm testing MathML with three browsers and getting inconsistent results.
IE11 seems to work best, then Firefox, but JAWS and Chrome seem to provide
the info to screenreaders sometimes and not others.
It's frustrating, as I don't know what to suggest to our customer other than
to ensure that JAWS is always paired with IE11.

Cheers, Isabel

On 28/05/2019, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Isabel,
>
> I would be curious to see what answers you get, as I know in EPUBs
> best practice (right now) is to do MathML AND plain text summaries (or
> whatever can be done in terms of explanations). I don't work with math
> on websites, so would love to know more about whether the two mesh or not.
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 8:34 AM Isabel Holdsworth
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
>> additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
>> acceptable?
>>
>> I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
>> screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder if
>> plain text would provide more consistent results.
>>
>> Thanks, Isabel
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Wed, May 29 2019 3:42AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Bim,

That's very interesting.

We're using the Wiris math editor for the web, and rather than
producing a graphic with alt text, it produces a styled equation whose
aria-hidden attribute is set to true, accompanied by a visually hidden
MathML expression.

It's the MathML expression that's causing problems for our customer,
since it isn't spoken in the same way, and often not at all, depending
on the browser/screenreader combination.

The graphic wouldn't be ideal for us either, for two reasons:

1. It's essentially an image of text which will pixellate when it's
zoomed up, unless they're using SVG.

2. VoiceOver speaks alt text as a single string, and I don't think
there's any way to interrogate it so as to break it down into its
component parts. This is usually fine for short texts like button
labels, but users need more granularity when reading complex maths
expressions.

But our customer might decide it's a better solution than what they've
got at the moment, so thank you.

Cheers, Isabel

On 29/05/2019, Bim Egan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Isabel,
>
> I did a little research on this for a client, and found the following that
> may be useful.
>
> WIRIS Math Type (equation editor and image producer:
> https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/start
>
> It's engine not only produces an image, but also the alt text that I
> thought
> made the equation very clear.
>
> There's an example on one of their tutorial pages at:
> https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/mathtype_desktop/basic_tutorials
>
> HTH,
>
> Bim
> -------------
> Bim Egan
> Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
> Personal Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Skype ID: bim.accessequals
>
> Coordinator: Describe Online
> W: www.describe-online.com
> E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> ----------------------------------------
> Partner: AccessEquals
> W: www.accessequals.com
> E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Isabel Holdsworth
> Sent: 29 May 2019 08:58
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content
>
> Hi Lisa,
>
> I'm testing MathML with three browsers and getting inconsistent results.
> IE11 seems to work best, then Firefox, but JAWS and Chrome seem to provide
> the info to screenreaders sometimes and not others.
> It's frustrating, as I don't know what to suggest to our customer other
> than
> to ensure that JAWS is always paired with IE11.
>
> Cheers, Isabel
>
> On 28/05/2019, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hi Isabel,
>>
>> I would be curious to see what answers you get, as I know in EPUBs
>> best practice (right now) is to do MathML AND plain text summaries (or
>> whatever can be done in terms of explanations). I don't work with math
>> on websites, so would love to know more about whether the two mesh or
>> not.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 8:34 AM Isabel Holdsworth
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
>>> additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
>>> acceptable?
>>>
>>> I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
>>> screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder if
>>> plain text would provide more consistent results.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Isabel
>>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
> > > > >

From: L Snider
Date: Wed, May 29 2019 6:24AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Isabel,

Sounds like it is the same as EPUB in terms of the issues with MathML.
Sorry, I made an error in my first email, the best practice is to do MathML
and an image with alt text. My brain was tired! Sometimes people did text,
but only for the most simple math (and even then image would be best
practice).

From my limited research about 5 months ago, it is still the best one right
now. However, people are working on different solutions, as this has been
an issue since it came out.

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 4:43 AM Isabel Holdsworth < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Hi Bim,
>
> That's very interesting.
>
> We're using the Wiris math editor for the web, and rather than
> producing a graphic with alt text, it produces a styled equation whose
> aria-hidden attribute is set to true, accompanied by a visually hidden
> MathML expression.
>
> It's the MathML expression that's causing problems for our customer,
> since it isn't spoken in the same way, and often not at all, depending
> on the browser/screenreader combination.
>
> The graphic wouldn't be ideal for us either, for two reasons:
>
> 1. It's essentially an image of text which will pixellate when it's
> zoomed up, unless they're using SVG.
>
> 2. VoiceOver speaks alt text as a single string, and I don't think
> there's any way to interrogate it so as to break it down into its
> component parts. This is usually fine for short texts like button
> labels, but users need more granularity when reading complex maths
> expressions.
>
> But our customer might decide it's a better solution than what they've
> got at the moment, so thank you.
>
> Cheers, Isabel
>
> On 29/05/2019, Bim Egan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Hi Isabel,
> >
> > I did a little research on this for a client, and found the following
> that
> > may be useful.
> >
> > WIRIS Math Type (equation editor and image producer:
> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/start
> >
> > It's engine not only produces an image, but also the alt text that I
> > thought
> > made the equation very clear.
> >
> > There's an example on one of their tutorial pages at:
> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/mathtype_desktop/basic_tutorials
> >
> > HTH,
> >
> > Bim
> > -------------
> > Bim Egan
> > Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
> > Personal Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > Skype ID: bim.accessequals
> >
> > Coordinator: Describe Online
> > W: www.describe-online.com
> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Partner: AccessEquals
> > W: www.accessequals.com
> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf
> > Of Isabel Holdsworth
> > Sent: 29 May 2019 08:58
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content
> >
> > Hi Lisa,
> >
> > I'm testing MathML with three browsers and getting inconsistent results.
> > IE11 seems to work best, then Firefox, but JAWS and Chrome seem to
> provide
> > the info to screenreaders sometimes and not others.
> > It's frustrating, as I don't know what to suggest to our customer other
> > than
> > to ensure that JAWS is always paired with IE11.
> >
> > Cheers, Isabel
> >
> > On 28/05/2019, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> Hi Isabel,
> >>
> >> I would be curious to see what answers you get, as I know in EPUBs
> >> best practice (right now) is to do MathML AND plain text summaries (or
> >> whatever can be done in terms of explanations). I don't work with math
> >> on websites, so would love to know more about whether the two mesh or
> >> not.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Lisa
> >>
> >> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 8:34 AM Isabel Holdsworth
> >> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
> >>> additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
> >>> acceptable?
> >>>
> >>> I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
> >>> screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder if
> >>> plain text would provide more consistent results.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks, Isabel
> >>> > >>> > >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>> > >>>
> >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >>
> > > > > archives at
> > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, May 29 2019 7:29AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

MathML support is spotty/inconsistent and sometimes downright missing.
Kepe inmind that IE11 is eventually going to g away, probably in a
matter of years, so we, as a community must focus on
Chrome/Firefox/Edge (which will run on Chomium).
In 2011 I had a short stint with Design Science, makers of Mathplayer
(wich renders MathML into speech), but even then there lack of user
agent support was a big problem for MathML. My understanding is that
it's not improved, but we have nothing else to replace it.
So I'd recommend going with MathML for now and then file issues with
browsers/screen reader vendors to draw attention to the problem with
missing MathML support.



On 5/29/19, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi Isabel,
>
> Sounds like it is the same as EPUB in terms of the issues with MathML.
> Sorry, I made an error in my first email, the best practice is to do MathML
> and an image with alt text. My brain was tired! Sometimes people did text,
> but only for the most simple math (and even then image would be best
> practice).
>
> From my limited research about 5 months ago, it is still the best one right
> now. However, people are working on different solutions, as this has been
> an issue since it came out.
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 4:43 AM Isabel Holdsworth
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bim,
>>
>> That's very interesting.
>>
>> We're using the Wiris math editor for the web, and rather than
>> producing a graphic with alt text, it produces a styled equation whose
>> aria-hidden attribute is set to true, accompanied by a visually hidden
>> MathML expression.
>>
>> It's the MathML expression that's causing problems for our customer,
>> since it isn't spoken in the same way, and often not at all, depending
>> on the browser/screenreader combination.
>>
>> The graphic wouldn't be ideal for us either, for two reasons:
>>
>> 1. It's essentially an image of text which will pixellate when it's
>> zoomed up, unless they're using SVG.
>>
>> 2. VoiceOver speaks alt text as a single string, and I don't think
>> there's any way to interrogate it so as to break it down into its
>> component parts. This is usually fine for short texts like button
>> labels, but users need more granularity when reading complex maths
>> expressions.
>>
>> But our customer might decide it's a better solution than what they've
>> got at the moment, so thank you.
>>
>> Cheers, Isabel
>>
>> On 29/05/2019, Bim Egan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> > Hi Isabel,
>> >
>> > I did a little research on this for a client, and found the following
>> that
>> > may be useful.
>> >
>> > WIRIS Math Type (equation editor and image producer:
>> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/start
>> >
>> > It's engine not only produces an image, but also the alt text that I
>> > thought
>> > made the equation very clear.
>> >
>> > There's an example on one of their tutorial pages at:
>> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/mathtype_desktop/basic_tutorials
>> >
>> > HTH,
>> >
>> > Bim
>> > -------------
>> > Bim Egan
>> > Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
>> > Personal Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> > Skype ID: bim.accessequals
>> >
>> > Coordinator: Describe Online
>> > W: www.describe-online.com
>> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> > ----------------------------------------
>> > Partner: AccessEquals
>> > W: www.accessequals.com
>> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>> Behalf
>> > Of Isabel Holdsworth
>> > Sent: 29 May 2019 08:58
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content
>> >
>> > Hi Lisa,
>> >
>> > I'm testing MathML with three browsers and getting inconsistent
>> > results.
>> > IE11 seems to work best, then Firefox, but JAWS and Chrome seem to
>> provide
>> > the info to screenreaders sometimes and not others.
>> > It's frustrating, as I don't know what to suggest to our customer other
>> > than
>> > to ensure that JAWS is always paired with IE11.
>> >
>> > Cheers, Isabel
>> >
>> > On 28/05/2019, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >> Hi Isabel,
>> >>
>> >> I would be curious to see what answers you get, as I know in EPUBs
>> >> best practice (right now) is to do MathML AND plain text summaries (or
>> >> whatever can be done in terms of explanations). I don't work with math
>> >> on websites, so would love to know more about whether the two mesh or
>> >> not.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Lisa
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 8:34 AM Isabel Holdsworth
>> >> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi all,
>> >>>
>> >>> Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
>> >>> additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
>> >>> acceptable?
>> >>>
>> >>> I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
>> >>> screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder if
>> >>> plain text would provide more consistent results.
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks, Isabel
>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> archives at
>> > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> >
>> > ---
>> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> > https://www.avg.com
>> >
>> >
>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Wed, May 29 2019 7:38AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks guys. This is less than encouraging, and very frustrating,
especially for organisations in the process of moving paper assessment
online. I'm stumped as to what I can suggest.

Cheers, Isabel

On 29/05/2019, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> MathML support is spotty/inconsistent and sometimes downright missing.
> Kepe inmind that IE11 is eventually going to g away, probably in a
> matter of years, so we, as a community must focus on
> Chrome/Firefox/Edge (which will run on Chomium).
> In 2011 I had a short stint with Design Science, makers of Mathplayer
> (wich renders MathML into speech), but even then there lack of user
> agent support was a big problem for MathML. My understanding is that
> it's not improved, but we have nothing else to replace it.
> So I'd recommend going with MathML for now and then file issues with
> browsers/screen reader vendors to draw attention to the problem with
> missing MathML support.
>
>
>
> On 5/29/19, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> Hi Isabel,
>>
>> Sounds like it is the same as EPUB in terms of the issues with MathML.
>> Sorry, I made an error in my first email, the best practice is to do
>> MathML
>> and an image with alt text. My brain was tired! Sometimes people did
>> text,
>> but only for the most simple math (and even then image would be best
>> practice).
>>
>> From my limited research about 5 months ago, it is still the best one
>> right
>> now. However, people are working on different solutions, as this has been
>> an issue since it came out.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 4:43 AM Isabel Holdsworth
>> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Bim,
>>>
>>> That's very interesting.
>>>
>>> We're using the Wiris math editor for the web, and rather than
>>> producing a graphic with alt text, it produces a styled equation whose
>>> aria-hidden attribute is set to true, accompanied by a visually hidden
>>> MathML expression.
>>>
>>> It's the MathML expression that's causing problems for our customer,
>>> since it isn't spoken in the same way, and often not at all, depending
>>> on the browser/screenreader combination.
>>>
>>> The graphic wouldn't be ideal for us either, for two reasons:
>>>
>>> 1. It's essentially an image of text which will pixellate when it's
>>> zoomed up, unless they're using SVG.
>>>
>>> 2. VoiceOver speaks alt text as a single string, and I don't think
>>> there's any way to interrogate it so as to break it down into its
>>> component parts. This is usually fine for short texts like button
>>> labels, but users need more granularity when reading complex maths
>>> expressions.
>>>
>>> But our customer might decide it's a better solution than what they've
>>> got at the moment, so thank you.
>>>
>>> Cheers, Isabel
>>>
>>> On 29/05/2019, Bim Egan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> > Hi Isabel,
>>> >
>>> > I did a little research on this for a client, and found the following
>>> that
>>> > may be useful.
>>> >
>>> > WIRIS Math Type (equation editor and image producer:
>>> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/start
>>> >
>>> > It's engine not only produces an image, but also the alt text that I
>>> > thought
>>> > made the equation very clear.
>>> >
>>> > There's an example on one of their tutorial pages at:
>>> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/mathtype_desktop/basic_tutorials
>>> >
>>> > HTH,
>>> >
>>> > Bim
>>> > -------------
>>> > Bim Egan
>>> > Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
>>> > Personal Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> > Skype ID: bim.accessequals
>>> >
>>> > Coordinator: Describe Online
>>> > W: www.describe-online.com
>>> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> > ----------------------------------------
>>> > Partner: AccessEquals
>>> > W: www.accessequals.com
>>> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
>>> Behalf
>>> > Of Isabel Holdsworth
>>> > Sent: 29 May 2019 08:58
>>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content
>>> >
>>> > Hi Lisa,
>>> >
>>> > I'm testing MathML with three browsers and getting inconsistent
>>> > results.
>>> > IE11 seems to work best, then Firefox, but JAWS and Chrome seem to
>>> provide
>>> > the info to screenreaders sometimes and not others.
>>> > It's frustrating, as I don't know what to suggest to our customer
>>> > other
>>> > than
>>> > to ensure that JAWS is always paired with IE11.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers, Isabel
>>> >
>>> > On 28/05/2019, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> >> Hi Isabel,
>>> >>
>>> >> I would be curious to see what answers you get, as I know in EPUBs
>>> >> best practice (right now) is to do MathML AND plain text summaries
>>> >> (or
>>> >> whatever can be done in terms of explanations). I don't work with
>>> >> math
>>> >> on websites, so would love to know more about whether the two mesh or
>>> >> not.
>>> >>
>>> >> Cheers
>>> >>
>>> >> Lisa
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 8:34 AM Isabel Holdsworth
>>> >> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi all,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
>>> >>> additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
>>> >>> acceptable?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
>>> >>> screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder
>>> >>> if
>>> >>> plain text would provide more consistent results.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thanks, Isabel
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >> >>> >>
>>> > >>> > >>> archives at
>>> > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> > >>> >
>>> > ---
>>> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>>> > https://www.avg.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >> >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > > >

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Wed, May 29 2019 8:00AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
MathML is the best solution currently.
Both Jaws and NVDA support MathML on Windows.
It seems as if Firefox is the only browser that supports MathML with screen
readers. I hope I'm wrong though!
Here is where you can find the places to vote for MathML in Chrome and Edge.
<http://www.mathml-association.org/faq.html#3-where-can-i-vote-for-mathml-support-in-chrome-and-microsoft-edge>;
I don't know about VO on Firefox.
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 6:38 AM Isabel Holdsworth < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Thanks guys. This is less than encouraging, and very frustrating,
> especially for organisations in the process of moving paper assessment
> online. I'm stumped as to what I can suggest.
>
> Cheers, Isabel
>
> On 29/05/2019, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > MathML support is spotty/inconsistent and sometimes downright missing.
> > Kepe inmind that IE11 is eventually going to g away, probably in a
> > matter of years, so we, as a community must focus on
> > Chrome/Firefox/Edge (which will run on Chomium).
> > In 2011 I had a short stint with Design Science, makers of Mathplayer
> > (wich renders MathML into speech), but even then there lack of user
> > agent support was a big problem for MathML. My understanding is that
> > it's not improved, but we have nothing else to replace it.
> > So I'd recommend going with MathML for now and then file issues with
> > browsers/screen reader vendors to draw attention to the problem with
> > missing MathML support.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/29/19, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> Hi Isabel,
> >>
> >> Sounds like it is the same as EPUB in terms of the issues with MathML.
> >> Sorry, I made an error in my first email, the best practice is to do
> >> MathML
> >> and an image with alt text. My brain was tired! Sometimes people did
> >> text,
> >> but only for the most simple math (and even then image would be best
> >> practice).
> >>
> >> From my limited research about 5 months ago, it is still the best one
> >> right
> >> now. However, people are working on different solutions, as this has
> been
> >> an issue since it came out.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Lisa
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 4:43 AM Isabel Holdsworth
> >> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Bim,
> >>>
> >>> That's very interesting.
> >>>
> >>> We're using the Wiris math editor for the web, and rather than
> >>> producing a graphic with alt text, it produces a styled equation whose
> >>> aria-hidden attribute is set to true, accompanied by a visually hidden
> >>> MathML expression.
> >>>
> >>> It's the MathML expression that's causing problems for our customer,
> >>> since it isn't spoken in the same way, and often not at all, depending
> >>> on the browser/screenreader combination.
> >>>
> >>> The graphic wouldn't be ideal for us either, for two reasons:
> >>>
> >>> 1. It's essentially an image of text which will pixellate when it's
> >>> zoomed up, unless they're using SVG.
> >>>
> >>> 2. VoiceOver speaks alt text as a single string, and I don't think
> >>> there's any way to interrogate it so as to break it down into its
> >>> component parts. This is usually fine for short texts like button
> >>> labels, but users need more granularity when reading complex maths
> >>> expressions.
> >>>
> >>> But our customer might decide it's a better solution than what they've
> >>> got at the moment, so thank you.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers, Isabel
> >>>
> >>> On 29/05/2019, Bim Egan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >>> > Hi Isabel,
> >>> >
> >>> > I did a little research on this for a client, and found the following
> >>> that
> >>> > may be useful.
> >>> >
> >>> > WIRIS Math Type (equation editor and image producer:
> >>> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/start
> >>> >
> >>> > It's engine not only produces an image, but also the alt text that I
> >>> > thought
> >>> > made the equation very clear.
> >>> >
> >>> > There's an example on one of their tutorial pages at:
> >>> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/mathtype_desktop/basic_tutorials
> >>> >
> >>> > HTH,
> >>> >
> >>> > Bim
> >>> > -------------
> >>> > Bim Egan
> >>> > Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
> >>> > Personal Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> > Skype ID: bim.accessequals
> >>> >
> >>> > Coordinator: Describe Online
> >>> > W: www.describe-online.com
> >>> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> > ----------------------------------------
> >>> > Partner: AccessEquals
> >>> > W: www.accessequals.com
> >>> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >>> > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >>> Behalf
> >>> > Of Isabel Holdsworth
> >>> > Sent: 29 May 2019 08:58
> >>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi Lisa,
> >>> >
> >>> > I'm testing MathML with three browsers and getting inconsistent
> >>> > results.
> >>> > IE11 seems to work best, then Firefox, but JAWS and Chrome seem to
> >>> provide
> >>> > the info to screenreaders sometimes and not others.
> >>> > It's frustrating, as I don't know what to suggest to our customer
> >>> > other
> >>> > than
> >>> > to ensure that JAWS is always paired with IE11.
> >>> >
> >>> > Cheers, Isabel
> >>> >
> >>> > On 28/05/2019, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >>> >> Hi Isabel,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I would be curious to see what answers you get, as I know in EPUBs
> >>> >> best practice (right now) is to do MathML AND plain text summaries
> >>> >> (or
> >>> >> whatever can be done in terms of explanations). I don't work with
> >>> >> math
> >>> >> on websites, so would love to know more about whether the two mesh
> or
> >>> >> not.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Cheers
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Lisa
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 8:34 AM Isabel Holdsworth
> >>> >> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Hi all,
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
> >>> >>> additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
> >>> >>> acceptable?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
> >>> >>> screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder
> >>> >>> if
> >>> >>> plain text would provide more consistent results.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Thanks, Isabel
> >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>> >>> > >>> >>>
> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>> >> > >>> >>
> >>> > > >>> > > >>> archives at
> >>> > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>> > > >>> >
> >>> > ---
> >>> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> >>> > https://www.avg.com
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >
> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Wed, May 29 2019 8:49AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hello,
I just tested using NVDA on Chrome, and support is there.
I don't know about the visual content though.
Thank you,

Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;


On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 6:29 AM Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> MathML support is spotty/inconsistent and sometimes downright missing.
> Kepe inmind that IE11 is eventually going to g away, probably in a
> matter of years, so we, as a community must focus on
> Chrome/Firefox/Edge (which will run on Chomium).
> In 2011 I had a short stint with Design Science, makers of Mathplayer
> (wich renders MathML into speech), but even then there lack of user
> agent support was a big problem for MathML. My understanding is that
> it's not improved, but we have nothing else to replace it.
> So I'd recommend going with MathML for now and then file issues with
> browsers/screen reader vendors to draw attention to the problem with
> missing MathML support.
>
>
>
> On 5/29/19, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > Hi Isabel,
> >
> > Sounds like it is the same as EPUB in terms of the issues with MathML.
> > Sorry, I made an error in my first email, the best practice is to do
> MathML
> > and an image with alt text. My brain was tired! Sometimes people did
> text,
> > but only for the most simple math (and even then image would be best
> > practice).
> >
> > From my limited research about 5 months ago, it is still the best one
> right
> > now. However, people are working on different solutions, as this has been
> > an issue since it came out.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Lisa
> >
> > On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 4:43 AM Isabel Holdsworth
> > < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Bim,
> >>
> >> That's very interesting.
> >>
> >> We're using the Wiris math editor for the web, and rather than
> >> producing a graphic with alt text, it produces a styled equation whose
> >> aria-hidden attribute is set to true, accompanied by a visually hidden
> >> MathML expression.
> >>
> >> It's the MathML expression that's causing problems for our customer,
> >> since it isn't spoken in the same way, and often not at all, depending
> >> on the browser/screenreader combination.
> >>
> >> The graphic wouldn't be ideal for us either, for two reasons:
> >>
> >> 1. It's essentially an image of text which will pixellate when it's
> >> zoomed up, unless they're using SVG.
> >>
> >> 2. VoiceOver speaks alt text as a single string, and I don't think
> >> there's any way to interrogate it so as to break it down into its
> >> component parts. This is usually fine for short texts like button
> >> labels, but users need more granularity when reading complex maths
> >> expressions.
> >>
> >> But our customer might decide it's a better solution than what they've
> >> got at the moment, so thank you.
> >>
> >> Cheers, Isabel
> >>
> >> On 29/05/2019, Bim Egan < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> > Hi Isabel,
> >> >
> >> > I did a little research on this for a client, and found the following
> >> that
> >> > may be useful.
> >> >
> >> > WIRIS Math Type (equation editor and image producer:
> >> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/start
> >> >
> >> > It's engine not only produces an image, but also the alt text that I
> >> > thought
> >> > made the equation very clear.
> >> >
> >> > There's an example on one of their tutorial pages at:
> >> > https://docs.wiris.com/en/mathtype/mathtype_desktop/basic_tutorials
> >> >
> >> > HTH,
> >> >
> >> > Bim
> >> > -------------
> >> > Bim Egan
> >> > Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
> >> > Personal Email: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> > Skype ID: bim.accessequals
> >> >
> >> > Coordinator: Describe Online
> >> > W: www.describe-online.com
> >> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> > ----------------------------------------
> >> > Partner: AccessEquals
> >> > W: www.accessequals.com
> >> > E: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> >> Behalf
> >> > Of Isabel Holdsworth
> >> > Sent: 29 May 2019 08:58
> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content
> >> >
> >> > Hi Lisa,
> >> >
> >> > I'm testing MathML with three browsers and getting inconsistent
> >> > results.
> >> > IE11 seems to work best, then Firefox, but JAWS and Chrome seem to
> >> provide
> >> > the info to screenreaders sometimes and not others.
> >> > It's frustrating, as I don't know what to suggest to our customer
> other
> >> > than
> >> > to ensure that JAWS is always paired with IE11.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers, Isabel
> >> >
> >> > On 28/05/2019, L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >> >> Hi Isabel,
> >> >>
> >> >> I would be curious to see what answers you get, as I know in EPUBs
> >> >> best practice (right now) is to do MathML AND plain text summaries
> (or
> >> >> whatever can be done in terms of explanations). I don't work with
> math
> >> >> on websites, so would love to know more about whether the two mesh or
> >> >> not.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers
> >> >>
> >> >> Lisa
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 8:34 AM Isabel Holdsworth
> >> >> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hi all,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Is it preferable to use MathML for all maths content, even simple
> >> >>> additions, fractions, etc? Or would plain text ( 1 + 2 or 1/4 ) be
> >> >>> acceptable?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I get mixed results with MathML depending on which
> >> >>> screenreader/browser combination I'm using, and sometimes I wonder
> if
> >> >>> plain text would provide more consistent results.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Thanks, Isabel
> >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> >>> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> > > >> > > >> archives at
> >> > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >> >
> >> > ---
> >> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> >> > https://www.avg.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > > >

From: Brian Kardell
Date: Wed, May 29 2019 11:22AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 9:29 AM Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> MathML support is spotty/inconsistent and sometimes downright missing.
> Kepe inmind that IE11 is eventually going to g away, probably in a
> matter of years, so we, as a community must focus on
> Chrome/Firefox/Edge (which will run on Chomium).
>

I'd like to add to this that mathml has a complex history and suffered a
series of very unfortunate events which I wrote about on my blog
https://bkardell.com/blog/Math.html, if you are interested in the context
around this, including the current state an efforts.

To sum up a TL;DR of the current state:

My organization, Igalia, contributes (in the code sense) to all of the
browsers and has been working with Chrome developers for a few years to
work out some kind of proposal. There was some general agreement of a
plan. We began a fundraising campaign https://mathml.igalia.com/. We
received initial funding from the NISO through a grant from the Alfred P
Sloan Foundation. This plan was sent for review to the W3C's Technical
Architecture Group (https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/313),
and feedback seems positive. There is an active community group doing all
of the necessary spec work and hard decisions involved in the plan
https://mathml-refresh.github.io/ . Part of this work is to ensure
interoperability between implementations as well. Our implementation of
this work in Chrome is making good progress as you can see here
https://mathml.igalia.com/news/2019/05/03/igalia-is-making-good-progress/#new,
and we would love for more people and organizations to be involved. If
you, or your organization thinks this is important work and would like to
chat about how you can help, feel free to reach out.



--
Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Thu, May 30 2019 4:01AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks Brian. This sounds reasonably encouraging.

On 29/05/2019, Brian Kardell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 9:29 AM Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> MathML support is spotty/inconsistent and sometimes downright missing.
>> Kepe inmind that IE11 is eventually going to g away, probably in a
>> matter of years, so we, as a community must focus on
>> Chrome/Firefox/Edge (which will run on Chomium).
>>
>
> I'd like to add to this that mathml has a complex history and suffered a
> series of very unfortunate events which I wrote about on my blog
> https://bkardell.com/blog/Math.html, if you are interested in the context
> around this, including the current state an efforts.
>
> To sum up a TL;DR of the current state:
>
> My organization, Igalia, contributes (in the code sense) to all of the
> browsers and has been working with Chrome developers for a few years to
> work out some kind of proposal. There was some general agreement of a
> plan. We began a fundraising campaign https://mathml.igalia.com/. We
> received initial funding from the NISO through a grant from the Alfred P
> Sloan Foundation. This plan was sent for review to the W3C's Technical
> Architecture Group (https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/313),
> and feedback seems positive. There is an active community group doing all
> of the necessary spec work and hard decisions involved in the plan
> https://mathml-refresh.github.io/ . Part of this work is to ensure
> interoperability between implementations as well. Our implementation of
> this work in Chrome is making good progress as you can see here
> https://mathml.igalia.com/news/2019/05/03/igalia-is-making-good-progress/#new,
> and we would love for more people and organizations to be involved. If
> you, or your organization thinks this is important work and would like to
> chat about how you can help, feel free to reach out.
>
>
>
> --
> Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com
> > > > >

From: Mallory
Date: Sat, Jun 01 2019 2:14AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,

When I was working in education, while we tried to do everything possible
in MathML, what most simpler math students wanted and needed was the
so-called ASCII math. Similar to what you'd type. We did this with MathJax,
which was pretty heavy for phone CPUs. Iphones were not happy with
long pages of equations (which is why everyone would love not to need
MathJax, including the creators).

It's this ASCII math that our alt text was made out of most of the time. It's
good to have an instruction telling students to up their verbosity, so they
are more likely to hear something like
−4 + −2 = −6

With lower verbosity levels, many symbols get ignored.

Our alt text switched to words once you got to phrases like "square root of".

As someone mentioned earlier, the alt text is a firehose. It cannot be
inspected by the student bit by bit, so alt text was not recommended for
larger in-depth formulas unless the formula itself was being presented in
bits (which we had a lot of, showing how to reduce fractions or simple
algebra steps).

For things like PowerPoint (which are unfortunately very popular), the
creators needed to use MathType to render the equations, while students
were required to purchase MathType for $99 (special academic price).
Normally, for web, the free MathPlayer was enough, but for MathML to be
rendered in something using OLE's like PowerPoint, the student needed the
full MathType (and not Lite, which was the fallback after the 30-day free
trial). Or, this was the state of things a few years ago-- DS/Wiris may have
been working on making the Lite support MathML in OLEs after version 4.

Btw, this is now WIRIS, they've bought or teamed up withDesignScience,
makers of MathPlayer (which btw worked pretty well with
NVDA+Firefox for many years. Chrome never worked as at the time it had
zero support for MathML. For Edge, MathML support is a top voted request
request on UserVoice, a place where people can vote for features:
https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/257854-microsoft-edge-developer/suggestions/6508572-mathml).

You'll need a combination of MathML and a kind of alt text/ASCII math for
math under Algebra 1 or 2... once you get around that level or higher, MathML
breaks down. Technically, the spec could probably handle it, but apparently
it gets very complicated very fast and even browsers who want to support
it run into trouble quickly. MathJax was still being used heavily but above
certain math levels it too started having bugs displaying or describing more
complex formulas. Quadratic formulas kind of things.

For higher math, today it seems the only thing that always works all the time,
allowing not only students to read math but also to write and format it so
that teachers and fellow students can read it as well, is LaTeX. It always works,
but it's verbose, and requires both student and teacher to know it.

For Braille support, Sam Dooley did make an online math palette thing which
can switch between displaying rendered math (via content MathML, which then
presented on the web page as presentational MathML) and Braille.
http://accessibility.pearson.com/aee/
I'm not sure what the status of this is right now, and of course it's only for the
issue of Braille, but it might be nice to know it exists if you're dealing with
Braille users and doing that 3-day turnaround thing where someone prints
it, someone reads it, results sent back thing.

I had no idea Brian was working at Igalia or that Igalia was working with the
chromium team. This is fantastic news. I keep hearing rumours of the death
of MathML due to the lack of support in browsers. I think the SR vendors can
only really correctly read math once browsers are all exposing it in generally
the same way. But I don't know the solution for when math starts getting
difficult/complex and the world stops agreeing on how certain things should
be written or spoken out loud. Most students say they'd prefer they hear math
the same way teachers and classmates speak it, but there are global
and even regional differences (I don't know the details of this, I've heard this
from blind math whizzes).

cheers,
Mallory

On Thu, May 30, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Isabel Holdsworth wrote:
> Thanks Brian. This sounds reasonably encouraging.
>
> On 29/05/2019, Brian Kardell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 9:29 AM Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> MathML support is spotty/inconsistent and sometimes downright missing.
> >> Kepe inmind that IE11 is eventually going to g away, probably in a
> >> matter of years, so we, as a community must focus on
> >> Chrome/Firefox/Edge (which will run on Chomium).
> >>
> >
> > I'd like to add to this that mathml has a complex history and suffered a
> > series of very unfortunate events which I wrote about on my blog
> > https://bkardell.com/blog/Math.html, if you are interested in the context
> > around this, including the current state an efforts.
> >
> > To sum up a TL;DR of the current state:
> >
> > My organization, Igalia, contributes (in the code sense) to all of the
> > browsers and has been working with Chrome developers for a few years to
> > work out some kind of proposal. There was some general agreement of a
> > plan. We began a fundraising campaign https://mathml.igalia.com/. We
> > received initial funding from the NISO through a grant from the Alfred P
> > Sloan Foundation. This plan was sent for review to the W3C's Technical
> > Architecture Group (https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/313),
> > and feedback seems positive. There is an active community group doing all
> > of the necessary spec work and hard decisions involved in the plan
> > https://mathml-refresh.github.io/ . Part of this work is to ensure
> > interoperability between implementations as well. Our implementation of
> > this work in Chrome is making good progress as you can see here
> > https://mathml.igalia.com/news/2019/05/03/igalia-is-making-good-progress/#new,
> > and we would love for more people and organizations to be involved. If
> > you, or your organization thinks this is important work and would like to
> > chat about how you can help, feel free to reach out.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >

From: jeffgutsell@fuse.net
Date: Sun, Jun 02 2019 9:33AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

The sorry state of math support is a good topic for an article at webaim.org. At a minimum, authors should be warned of the challenges. I did some searching on the Web and was struck by the skimpy resources. Even universities seem to have old, incomplete guidance for their content developers. For example, I found an MIT page that refers to HTML 4.1 being in draft status.
Jeff
Gutsell
.


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Mallory
Sent: Saturday, June 1, 2019 4:14 AM
To: Isabel Holdsworth < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >; WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content

Hi,

When I was working in education, while we tried to do everything possible in MathML, what most simpler math students wanted and needed was the so-called ASCII math. Similar to what you'd type. We did this with MathJax, which was pretty heavy for phone CPUs. Iphones were not happy with long pages of equations (which is why everyone would love not to need MathJax, including the creators).

It's this ASCII math that our alt text was made out of most of the time. It's good to have an instruction telling students to up their verbosity, so they are more likely to hear something like
−4 + −2 = −6

With lower verbosity levels, many symbols get ignored.

Our alt text switched to words once you got to phrases like "square root of".

As someone mentioned earlier, the alt text is a firehose. It cannot be inspected by the student bit by bit, so alt text was not recommended for larger in-depth formulas unless the formula itself was being presented in bits (which we had a lot of, showing how to reduce fractions or simple algebra steps).

For things like PowerPoint (which are unfortunately very popular), the creators needed to use MathType to render the equations, while students were required to purchase MathType for $99 (special academic price).
Normally, for web, the free MathPlayer was enough, but for MathML to be rendered in something using OLE's like PowerPoint, the student needed the full MathType (and not Lite, which was the fallback after the 30-day free trial). Or, this was the state of things a few years ago-- DS/Wiris may have been working on making the Lite support MathML in OLEs after version 4.

Btw, this is now WIRIS, they've bought or teamed up withDesignScience, makers of MathPlayer (which btw worked pretty well with
NVDA+Firefox for many years. Chrome never worked as at the time it had
zero support for MathML. For Edge, MathML support is a top voted request request on UserVoice, a place where people can vote for features:
https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/257854-microsoft-edge-developer/suggestions/6508572-mathml).

You'll need a combination of MathML and a kind of alt text/ASCII math for math under Algebra 1 or 2... once you get around that level or higher, MathML breaks down. Technically, the spec could probably handle it, but apparently it gets very complicated very fast and even browsers who want to support it run into trouble quickly. MathJax was still being used heavily but above certain math levels it too started having bugs displaying or describing more complex formulas. Quadratic formulas kind of things.

For higher math, today it seems the only thing that always works all the time, allowing not only students to read math but also to write and format it so that teachers and fellow students can read it as well, is LaTeX. It always works, but it's verbose, and requires both student and teacher to know it.

For Braille support, Sam Dooley did make an online math palette thing which can switch between displaying rendered math (via content MathML, which then presented on the web page as presentational MathML) and Braille.
http://accessibility.pearson.com/aee/
I'm not sure what the status of this is right now, and of course it's only for the issue of Braille, but it might be nice to know it exists if you're dealing with Braille users and doing that 3-day turnaround thing where someone prints it, someone reads it, results sent back thing.

I had no idea Brian was working at Igalia or that Igalia was working with the chromium team. This is fantastic news. I keep hearing rumours of the death of MathML due to the lack of support in browsers. I think the SR vendors can only really correctly read math once browsers are all exposing it in generally the same way. But I don't know the solution for when math starts getting difficult/complex and the world stops agreeing on how certain things should be written or spoken out loud. Most students say they'd prefer they hear math the same way teachers and classmates speak it, but there are global and even regional differences (I don't know the details of this, I've heard this from blind math whizzes).

cheers,
Mallory

On Thu, May 30, 2019, at 12:02 PM, Isabel Holdsworth wrote:
> Thanks Brian. This sounds reasonably encouraging.
>
> On 29/05/2019, Brian Kardell < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> > On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 9:29 AM Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> >> MathML support is spotty/inconsistent and sometimes downright missing.
> >> Kepe inmind that IE11 is eventually going to g away, probably in a
> >> matter of years, so we, as a community must focus on
> >> Chrome/Firefox/Edge (which will run on Chomium).
> >>
> >
> > I'd like to add to this that mathml has a complex history and
> > suffered a series of very unfortunate events which I wrote about on
> > my blog https://bkardell.com/blog/Math.html, if you are interested
> > in the context around this, including the current state an efforts.
> >
> > To sum up a TL;DR of the current state:
> >
> > My organization, Igalia, contributes (in the code sense) to all of
> > the browsers and has been working with Chrome developers for a few
> > years to work out some kind of proposal. There was some general
> > agreement of a plan. We began a fundraising campaign
> > https://mathml.igalia.com/. We received initial funding from the
> > NISO through a grant from the Alfred P Sloan Foundation. This plan
> > was sent for review to the W3C's Technical Architecture Group
> > (https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/313),
> > and feedback seems positive. There is an active community group
> > doing all of the necessary spec work and hard decisions involved in
> > the plan https://mathml-refresh.github.io/ . Part of this work is
> > to ensure interoperability between implementations as well. Our
> > implementation of this work in Chrome is making good progress as you
> > can see here
> > https://mathml.igalia.com/news/2019/05/03/igalia-is-making-good-prog
> > ress/#new, and we would love for more people and organizations to be
> > involved. If you, or your organization thinks this is important
> > work and would like to chat about how you can help, feel free to
> > reach out.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Brian Kardell :: @briankardell :: bkardell.com
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Mon, Jun 03 2019 7:47AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple maths content
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you Mallory for such a long and comprehensive reply!

I've learned a lot from this thread, the upshot of which sadly seems
to be that there's no tried and trusted means of presenting
mathematical content in a way that reliably works for screenreader or
Braille users.

Ah well, we'll just keep doing what we're doing and use MathML for now.

Thanks again, Isabel

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Mon, Jun 03 2019 8:33AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple math content
← Previous message | Next message →

Isabel H wrote:
"the upshot of which sadly seems to be that there's no tried and trusted
means of presenting mathematical content in a way that reliably works for
screenreader or Braille users."

That's correct. There is no one single method of creating accessible math
that works seamlessly across all assistive technologies. Also, no one method
when we create the accessible content and move the math from an equation
editor into documents, websites, EPUBs, whatever.

It's a real mess for the entire community.

Someone needs to fix this!

- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
Isabel Holdsworth
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2019 9:48 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content

Thank you Mallory for such a long and comprehensive reply!

I've learned a lot from this thread, the upshot of which sadly seems to be
that there's no tried and trusted means of presenting mathematical content
in a way that reliably works for screenreader or Braille users.

Ah well, we'll just keep doing what we're doing and use MathML for now.

Thanks again, Isabel
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives

From: Michael Ausbun
Date: Mon, Jun 03 2019 8:45AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple math content
← Previous message | Next message →

--_004_BY5PR02MB603628E31661B63AD032C57992140BY5PR02MB6036namp_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello All,
I am curious. Being blind and interacting with Math content =
with various assistive technologies, I recognize the problem this presents.=
What roll might Pearson's accessible equation editor play? Might the equat=
ion editor be modified in such a way to provide a robust output (if Pearson=
in general, Sam Dooley specifically, would be interested in expanding the =
functionality. Just a thought I have been thinking about over the last few =
days.
Respectfully,
Michael


--
Michael Duane Ausbun, MA
Specialist, Learning Experience,
Universal Design and Accessibility Team
Salt Lake City, Utah
[WGU Learning Experience]

Western Governors University
4001 South 700 East, Suite 700
Salt Lake City, UT 84107
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =


[Western Governors University]<wgu.edu>



From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of chag=
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2019 8:34 AM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple math content

[EXTERNAL EMAIL] WARNING: Be wise. Be cautious.

Isabel H wrote:
"the upshot of which sadly seems to be that there's no tried and trusted
means of presenting mathematical content in a way that reliably works for
screenreader or Braille users."

That's correct. There is no one single method of creating accessible math
that works seamlessly across all assistive technologies. Also, no one metho=
d
when we create the accessible content and move the math from an equation
editor into documents, websites, EPUBs, whatever.

It's a real mess for the entire community.

Someone needs to fix this!

- - -
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
- - -
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<;http://www.PubCom.com/classes>;
- - -
Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog<;http://w=
ww.PubCom.com/blog>

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:webaim-foru=
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> On Behalf Of
Isabel Holdsworth
Sent: Monday, June 3, 2019 9:48 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto:webaim-foru=
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content

Thank you Mallory for such a long and comprehensive reply!

I've learned a lot from this thread, the upshot of which sadly seems to be
that there's no tried and trusted means of presenting mathematical content
in a way that reliably works for screenreader or Braille users.

Ah well, we'll just keep doing what we're doing and use MathML for now.

Thanks again, Isabel
im.org/> List archives at
http://webaim.org/discussion/archives<;http://webaim.org/discussion/archives=
>
ist.webaim.org>

im.org/>
scussion/archives>
ist.webaim.org>

--_004_BY5PR02MB603628E31661B63AD032C57992140BY5PR02MB6036namp_
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--_004_BY5PR02MB603628E31661B63AD032C57992140BY5PR02MB6036namp_--

From: Isabel Holdsworth
Date: Tue, Jun 18 2019 8:00AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple math content
← Previous message | No next message

Hi Michael,

Have you seen what the output from the Pearson Accessible Equation
Editor looks like? Do you know if it's MathML? I find that editor
almost impossible to use. It feels like Wiris MathType with some of
the accessibility filtered out.

I quite like Wiris MathType. I think it's about the closest we've got
to accessible online maths content at the present time, from both
input and output perspectives.

Thanks, Isabel

On 03/06/2019, Michael Ausbun < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hello All,
> I am curious. Being blind and interacting with Math content
> with various assistive technologies, I recognize the problem this presents.
> What roll might Pearson's accessible equation editor play? Might the
> equation editor be modified in such a way to provide a robust output (if
> Pearson in general, Sam Dooley specifically, would be interested in
> expanding the functionality. Just a thought I have been thinking about over
> the last few days.
> Respectfully,
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Michael Duane Ausbun, MA
> Specialist, Learning Experience,
> Universal Design and Accessibility Team
> Salt Lake City, Utah
> [WGU Learning Experience]
>
> Western Governors University
> 4001 South 700 East, Suite 700
> Salt Lake City, UT 84107
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
> [Western Governors University]<wgu.edu>
>
>
>
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2019 8:34 AM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple math content
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] WARNING: Be wise. Be cautious.
>
> Isabel H wrote:
> "the upshot of which sadly seems to be that there's no tried and trusted
> means of presenting mathematical content in a way that reliably works for
> screenreader or Braille users."
>
> That's correct. There is no one single method of creating accessible math
> that works seamlessly across all assistive technologies. Also, no one
> method
> when we create the accessible content and move the math from an equation
> editor into documents, websites, EPUBs, whatever.
>
> It's a real mess for the entire community.
>
> Someone needs to fix this!
>
> - - -
> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> - - -
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<;http://www.PubCom.com/classes>;
> - - -
> Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at
> www.PubCom.com/blog<;http://www.PubCom.com/blog>;
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> On Behalf Of
> Isabel Holdsworth
> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2019 9:48 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content
>
> Thank you Mallory for such a long and comprehensive reply!
>
> I've learned a lot from this thread, the upshot of which sadly seems to be
> that there's no tried and trusted means of presenting mathematical content
> in a way that reliably works for screenreader or Braille users.
>
> Ah well, we'll just keep doing what we're doing and use MathML for now.
>
> Thanks again, Isabel
> > > http://list.webaim.org/<;http://list.webaim.org/>; List archives at
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives<;http://webaim.org/discussion/archives>;
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> > > http://list.webaim.org/<;http://list.webaim.org/>;
> List archives at
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives<;http://webaim.org/discussion/archives>;
> > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>