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Number of posts in this thread: 21 (In chronological order)

From: Praunicorn
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 10:52AM
Subject: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
No previous message | Next message →

Hi All,

Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am using below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me know I am in right combination or not.

1. Chrome With NVDA
2. Edge With Narrator

Regards,
Sreekar.

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 11:12AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Sreekar,

The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics have
been covered before:
https://webaim.org/discussion/archives

There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
readers and browsers, for e.g.:
Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread=8698

The best combination depends on several factors - including especially
your target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
combination is right for you.

Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following combinations:
JAWS/Internet Explorer
NVDA/Firefox
Voiceover/Safari

Phil.

On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am using below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me know I am in right combination or not.
>
> 1. Chrome With NVDA
> 2. Edge With Narrator
>
> Regards,
> Sreekar.
> > > >

From: Praunicorn
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 11:44AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Philip Kiff,

Thank you for your information , but I am not able see the information for Chrome & Edge browsers in the reply chain.

Chrome & Edge :

1. I am using the following combination "Chrome with NVDA" because In NVDA website they mentioned that they are supporting chrome along with the FF.

2. And also I have doubt, among IE and Edge which one is the best for Accessibility testing and what is screen reader combination for this.


Regards,
Sreekar

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Philip Kiff
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:42 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination

Hi Sreekar,

The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics have
been covered before:
https://webaim.org/discussion/archives

There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
readers and browsers, for e.g.:
Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread†98

The best combination depends on several factors - including especially
your target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
combination is right for you.

Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following combinations:
JAWS/Internet Explorer
NVDA/Firefox
Voiceover/Safari

Phil.

On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am using below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me know I am in right combination or not.
>
> 1. Chrome With NVDA
> 2. Edge With Narrator
>
> Regards,
> Sreekar.
> > > >

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 2:18PM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

I guess the point I was trying to make is that there is no "best"
combination of a single specific browser with a single screen reader
that is "best" for testing accessibility.

I'm not a specialist in the advantages and disadvantages of the many,
many different testing configurations available, but based on what
you've explained so far, I would recommend thinking of which screen
readers you are going to test with first. Then, you can decide if it
even matters which browsers you are using.

If you are going to use multiple browser and screen reader combinations,
then I would suggest that one of the screen readers should be JAWS. That
is the most widely used screen reader, and if your site is not usable in
JAWS then that will be a problem.

Phil.

On 2019-09-20 13:44, Praunicorn wrote:
> Hi Philip Kiff,
>
> Thank you for your information , but I am not able see the information for Chrome & Edge browsers in the reply chain.
>
> Chrome & Edge :
>
> 1. I am using the following combination "Chrome with NVDA" because In NVDA website they mentioned that they are supporting chrome along with the FF.
>
> 2. And also I have doubt, among IE and Edge which one is the best for Accessibility testing and what is screen reader combination for this.
>
>
> Regards,
> Sreekar
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Philip Kiff
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:42 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
>
> Hi Sreekar,
>
> The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics have
> been covered before:
> https://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>
> There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
> readers and browsers, for e.g.:
> Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
> https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread†98
>
> The best combination depends on several factors - including especially
> your target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
> combination is right for you.
>
> Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following combinations:
> JAWS/Internet Explorer
> NVDA/Firefox
> Voiceover/Safari
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am using below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me know I am in right combination or not.
>>
>> 1. Chrome With NVDA
>> 2. Edge With Narrator
>>
>> Regards,
>> Sreekar.
>> >> >> >> > > > > >
> > > >

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 2:33PM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Oh, and WebAIM does an excellent annual survey of screen reader users
and they publish the results, including a table showing the most popular
combinations of browsers and screen readers:
https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/#browsercombos

On 2019-09-20 16:18, Philip Kiff wrote:
> I guess the point I was trying to make is that there is no "best"
> combination of a single specific browser with a single screen reader
> that is "best" for testing accessibility.
>
> I'm not a specialist in the advantages and disadvantages of the many,
> many different testing configurations available, but based on what
> you've explained so far, I would recommend thinking of which screen
> readers you are going to test with first. Then, you can decide if it
> even matters which browsers you are using.
>
> If you are going to use multiple browser and screen reader
> combinations, then I would suggest that one of the screen readers
> should be JAWS. That is the most widely used screen reader, and if
> your site is not usable in JAWS then that will be a problem.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-09-20 13:44, Praunicorn wrote:
>> Hi Philip Kiff,
>>
>> Thank you for your information , but I am not able see the
>> information for  Chrome & Edge browsers in the reply chain.
>>
>> Chrome & Edge :
>>
>> 1. I am using the following combination  "Chrome with NVDA" because 
>> In NVDA website they mentioned that they are supporting chrome along
>> with the FF.
>>
>> 2. And also I have doubt, among IE and Edge which one is the best for
>> Accessibility testing and what is screen reader combination for this.
>>
>>              Regards,
>> Sreekar
>>
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>
>> From: Philip Kiff
>> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:42 PM
>> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
>>
>> Hi Sreekar,
>>
>> The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics have
>> been covered before:
>> https://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>
>> There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
>> readers and browsers, for e.g.:
>> Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
>> https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread†98
>>
>> The best combination depends on several factors - including especially
>> your target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
>> combination is right for you.
>>
>> Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following
>> combinations:
>> JAWS/Internet Explorer
>> NVDA/Firefox
>> Voiceover/Safari
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>> On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination.  I am
>>> using below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me
>>> know I am in right combination or not.
>>>
>>> 1. Chrome  With  NVDA
>>> 2. Edge  With Narrator
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Sreekar.
>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > > > >

From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 3:25PM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
infrastructure in early 2020?

Just curious. Here's what I test with:
Safari on IOS, and OSX
NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge

Best,
David

From: glen walker
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 6:10PM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Just remember that the survey is voluntary and not a distributed population
set. So the "most popular" combinations of screen readers and browsers
might end up being the most popular testing environments because the survey
might have been filled out by mostly accessibility testers (for example).
If you wanted a true "most popular" result based on actual screen reader
users (and not testers), the survey would have to be limited to that
population.

It's still a great survey but you have to be careful with the results.

You'll notice in the results that NVDA seems to be on par with JAWS but I
suspect that's because more and more accessibility testers fill out the
survey and most testers use both screen readers.


On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 2:33 PM Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Oh, and WebAIM does an excellent annual survey of screen reader users
> and they publish the results, including a table showing the most popular
> combinations of browsers and screen readers:
> https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/#browsercombos
>
>
>

From: Jared Smith
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 6:36PM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

> Just remember that the survey is voluntary and not a distributed population
> set.

Correct, but it is the largest data set from screen reader users available.

> So the "most popular" combinations of screen readers and browsers
> might end up being the most popular testing environments because the survey
> might have been filled out by mostly accessibility testers (for example).

This is not correct. 89.2% of respondents to the survey that is linked
here reported using a screen reader due to a disability. When there
are notable differences in responses between respondents with and
without disabilities, we note these, but most of the time the
responses generally align. In other words, the 10.8% of respondents
that don't have a disability do not skew the reported data in
significant ways.

> You'll notice in the results that NVDA seems to be on par with JAWS but I
> suspect that's because more and more accessibility testers fill out the
> survey and most testers use both screen readers.

Your suspicion is generally incorrect. 64.7% of respondents with
disabilities use NVDA compared to 69.3% of respondents without
disabilities. So usage is slightly higher among those without
disabilities, but these are so few in number that this skews the
overall NVDA usage percentage by only .2%.

We'll be publishing results from our most recent survey in the next week or so.

Thanks,

Jared Smith
WebAIM.org

From: Glen Walker
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 6:41PM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Good to know. Thanks for the clarifications.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 20, 2019, at 6:36 PM, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>> Just remember that the survey is voluntary and not a distributed population
>> set.
>
> Correct, but it is the largest data set from screen reader users available.
>
>> So the "most popular" combinations of screen readers and browsers
>> might end up being the most popular testing environments because the survey
>> might have been filled out by mostly accessibility testers (for example).
>
> This is not correct. 89.2% of respondents to the survey that is linked
> here reported using a screen reader due to a disability. When there
> are notable differences in responses between respondents with and
> without disabilities, we note these, but most of the time the
> responses generally align. In other words, the 10.8% of respondents
> that don't have a disability do not skew the reported data in
> significant ways.
>
>> You'll notice in the results that NVDA seems to be on par with JAWS but I
>> suspect that's because more and more accessibility testers fill out the
>> survey and most testers use both screen readers.
>
> Your suspicion is generally incorrect. 64.7% of respondents with
> disabilities use NVDA compared to 69.3% of respondents without
> disabilities. So usage is slightly higher among those without
> disabilities, but these are so few in number that this skews the
> overall NVDA usage percentage by only .2%.
>
> We'll be publishing results from our most recent survey in the next week or so.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jared Smith
> WebAIM.org
> > > >

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 7:14PM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> infrastructure in early 2020?
Mmm. Good point, but is IE really disappearing in 2020?

Like I say, I'm not really on top of the current news on this - I only
replied to this thread initially in order not to leave Sreekar in the
lurch without any responses. There are many folks on this list who know
considerably more than me about the state of screen readers and browsers.

But is IE really disappearing? There are still tons and tons of
intranets and custom applications that have been coded poorly and will
only work on IE. Those aren't going to disappear in 2020. I thought that
what Microsoft was planning on doing was somehow magically incorporating
an IE 11 emulator into Edge in order to guarantee that all those crappy
intranets will still work for several more years while systems folk
around the world scramble to recode what should have never been coded in
the first place, or to create replacements that are written in proper,
acceptable standards-compliant and somewhat-accessible code.

Aren't they even going to keep supporting IE 11 as an Enterprise product
for a while?

If both those are true, then whether you call it Edge or IE 11, there
will be lots of sites that still have to work with it? But like I say,
I'm not sure if all that is true?

(And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern browser
that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine and some
crazy IE 11 emulator, then someone over in their coding dept. will
deserve considerable praise. But I wonder if all that will really be
possible.... :-)

Phil.

On 2019-09-20 17:25, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> infrastructure in early 2020?
>
> Just curious. Here's what I test with:
> Safari on IOS, and OSX
> NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
> JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge
>
> Best,
> David
>
>
>

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 7:20PM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

> (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern
> browser that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine[....]
Not Webkit, I meant Blink - the Chrome rendering engine that Edge is now
using.

Phil.

On 2019-09-20 21:14, Philip Kiff wrote:
>> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
>> infrastructure in early 2020?
> Mmm. Good point, but is IE really disappearing in 2020?
>
> Like I say, I'm not really on top of the current news on this - I only
> replied to this thread initially in order not to leave Sreekar in the
> lurch without any responses. There are many folks on this list who
> know considerably more than me about the state of screen readers and
> browsers.
>
> But is IE really disappearing? There are still tons and tons of
> intranets and custom applications that have been coded poorly and will
> only work on IE. Those aren't going to disappear in 2020. I thought
> that what Microsoft was planning on doing was somehow magically
> incorporating an IE 11 emulator into Edge in order to guarantee that
> all those crappy intranets will still work for several more years
> while systems folk around the world scramble to recode what should
> have never been coded in the first place, or to create replacements
> that are written in proper, acceptable standards-compliant and
> somewhat-accessible code.
>
> Aren't they even going to keep supporting IE 11 as an Enterprise
> product for a while?
>
> If both those are true, then whether you call it Edge or IE 11, there
> will be lots of sites that still have to work with it? But like I say,
> I'm not sure if all that is true?
>
> (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern
> browser that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine and
> some crazy IE 11 emulator, then someone over in their coding dept.
> will deserve considerable praise. But I wonder if all that will really
> be possible.... :-)
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-09-20 17:25, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
>> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
>> infrastructure in early 2020?
>>
>> Just curious. Here's what I test with:
>> Safari on IOS, and OSX
>> NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
>> JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge
>>
>> Best,
>> David
>>
>>
>>

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Fri, Sep 20 2019 7:52PM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Another quick follow-up.

> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> infrastructure in early 2020?
I think you're confusing the end of IE 10 with the end of IE 11. A
little web searching reminded me that MS has said that they will support
IE 11 though the life of the operating system it shipped with. Which
means that we'll still have IE 11 *years* from now, since it shipped
with Windows 10 (?). IE 10 is end-of-life in January 2020. I think we'll
find that many, many JAWS users continue to use IE 11 for several more
years. That's what they know, and that's what works. Why would they
change if they don't have to? Though I expect the market share to
decrease - especially as NVDA takes over as an incredibly hard-to-resist
free option.

I'll be interested to see the current state of browsers + screen readers
as reflected in the new WebAIM survey results due out soon!

Phil.

On 2019-09-20 21:20, Philip Kiff wrote:
>> (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern
>> browser that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine[....]
> Not Webkit, I meant Blink - the Chrome rendering engine that Edge is
> now using.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-09-20 21:14, Philip Kiff wrote:
>>> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
>>> infrastructure in early 2020?
>> Mmm. Good point, but is IE really disappearing in 2020?
>>
>> Like I say, I'm not really on top of the current news on this - I
>> only replied to this thread initially in order not to leave Sreekar
>> in the lurch without any responses. There are many folks on this list
>> who know considerably more than me about the state of screen readers
>> and browsers.
>>
>> But is IE really disappearing? There are still tons and tons of
>> intranets and custom applications that have been coded poorly and
>> will only work on IE. Those aren't going to disappear in 2020. I
>> thought that what Microsoft was planning on doing was somehow
>> magically incorporating an IE 11 emulator into Edge in order to
>> guarantee that all those crappy intranets will still work for several
>> more years while systems folk around the world scramble to recode
>> what should have never been coded in the first place, or to create
>> replacements that are written in proper, acceptable
>> standards-compliant and somewhat-accessible code.
>>
>> Aren't they even going to keep supporting IE 11 as an Enterprise
>> product for a while?
>>
>> If both those are true, then whether you call it Edge or IE 11, there
>> will be lots of sites that still have to work with it? But like I
>> say, I'm not sure if all that is true?
>>
>> (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern
>> browser that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine
>> and some crazy IE 11 emulator, then someone over in their coding
>> dept. will deserve considerable praise. But I wonder if all that will
>> really be possible.... :-)
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>> On 2019-09-20 17:25, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
>>> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
>>> infrastructure in early 2020?
>>>
>>> Just curious. Here's what I test with:
>>> Safari on IOS, and OSX
>>> NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
>>> JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>

From: Praunicorn
Date: Sun, Sep 22 2019 11:43AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi All,
 
I am very glad to know all this information from all of you, this is my luck that I have associated in this WebAIM list.
 
Ok, my targeted browsers are Chrome & IE or Edge, so I am planning below combination to start testing.  
 
Note: Somehow my client is not willing to spend much money on screen readers and he wants to depend on Free screen readers like NVDA and other, so I am proposing below-mentioned combination since they are free. I thought of suggesting "JAWS" for "Edge" browser but due to budget issues, I am suggesting a below-mentioned combination. And I am ignoring the "IE" browser since Microsoft is not going to support this for any more and there are so many issues will occur if user use IE browser. If client still want to IE then I will go for JAWS.
 
' Chrome With NVDA
' Edge with Narrator
 
Please correct me is there any change in the combination.
 
Regards,
Sreekar

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Philip Kiff
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 6:45 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination

> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> infrastructure in early 2020?
Mmm. Good point, but is IE really disappearing in 2020?

Like I say, I'm not really on top of the current news on this - I only
replied to this thread initially in order not to leave Sreekar in the
lurch without any responses. There are many folks on this list who know
considerably more than me about the state of screen readers and browsers.

But is IE really disappearing? There are still tons and tons of
intranets and custom applications that have been coded poorly and will
only work on IE. Those aren't going to disappear in 2020. I thought that
what Microsoft was planning on doing was somehow magically incorporating
an IE 11 emulator into Edge in order to guarantee that all those crappy
intranets will still work for several more years while systems folk
around the world scramble to recode what should have never been coded in
the first place, or to create replacements that are written in proper,
acceptable standards-compliant and somewhat-accessible code.

Aren't they even going to keep supporting IE 11 as an Enterprise product
for a while?

If both those are true, then whether you call it Edge or IE 11, there
will be lots of sites that still have to work with it? But like I say,
I'm not sure if all that is true?

(And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern browser
that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine and some
crazy IE 11 emulator, then someone over in their coding dept. will
deserve considerable praise. But I wonder if all that will really be
possible.... :-)

Phil.

On 2019-09-20 17:25, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> infrastructure in early 2020?
>
> Just curious. Here's what I test with:
> Safari on IOS, and OSX
> NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
> JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge
>
> Best,
> David
>
>
>

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2019 12:09AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

You can test with any combination you like as long as you don't fool yourself or your client into thinking you have achieved more coverage than you actually have. Some issues will affect all screen readers, but others will only affect certain ones. For instance, testing with NVDA and Narrator will not find all the issues that would occur with JAWS.

Also, screen readers do not work exactly the same on all browsers. If you test with Chrome and NVDA, you will not find some of the issues that occur with Firefox and NVDA. There might not be many, but there is no way to know how important they are.

There are also differences between different versions of the same screen reader.

You have to learn to live with this uncertainty because there is no such thing as "total coverage" and even 95% coverage would require testing with a large number of combinations. The two combinations you propose probably cover no more than 5%. Any two combinations probably won't cover more than 15% (less than that if you can't use JAWS).

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: Sean Murphy
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2019 1:54AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

A very important point to keep in mind. As you might not be a permanent screen reader user, you will not find the same is shoes or problems a user of this technology will. As these users will use the technology in a way that you might not consider. So I strongly encourage you find some screen reader users and see how they use your product and see if they have issues or not

My experience is the part

> On 23 Sep 2019, at 4:09 pm, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> You can test with any combination you like as long as you don't fool yourself or your client into thinking you have achieved more coverage than you actually have. Some issues will affect all screen readers, but others will only affect certain ones. For instance, testing with NVDA and Narrator will not find all the issues that would occur with JAWS.
>
> Also, screen readers do not work exactly the same on all browsers. If you test with Chrome and NVDA, you will not find some of the issues that occur with Firefox and NVDA. There might not be many, but there is no way to know how important they are.
>
> There are also differences between different versions of the same screen reader.
>
> You have to learn to live with this uncertainty because there is no such thing as "total coverage" and even 95% coverage would require testing with a large number of combinations. The two combinations you propose probably cover no more than 5%. Any two combinations probably won't cover more than 15% (less than that if you can't use JAWS).
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
>
>

From: Sean Murphy
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2019 1:59AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Internet explorer Version 11 is not as stable as it used to be. I'm finding more and more jaws uses r moving to chrome or Firefox as their preferred browser. These use of finding that I 11 is crashing on pages at the other browsers do not.

My experience is the part

On 21 Sep 2019, at 11:14 am, Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

>> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
>> infrastructure in early 2020?
> Mmm. Good point, but is IE really disappearing in 2020?
>
> Like I say, I'm not really on top of the current news on this - I only replied to this thread initially in order not to leave Sreekar in the lurch without any responses. There are many folks on this list who know considerably more than me about the state of screen readers and browsers.
>
> But is IE really disappearing? There are still tons and tons of intranets and custom applications that have been coded poorly and will only work on IE. Those aren't going to disappear in 2020. I thought that what Microsoft was planning on doing was somehow magically incorporating an IE 11 emulator into Edge in order to guarantee that all those crappy intranets will still work for several more years while systems folk around the world scramble to recode what should have never been coded in the first place, or to create replacements that are written in proper, acceptable standards-compliant and somewhat-accessible code.
>
> Aren't they even going to keep supporting IE 11 as an Enterprise product for a while?
>
> If both those are true, then whether you call it Edge or IE 11, there will be lots of sites that still have to work with it? But like I say, I'm not sure if all that is true?
>
> (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern browser that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine and some crazy IE 11 emulator, then someone over in their coding dept. will deserve considerable praise. But I wonder if all that will really be possible.... :-)
>
> Phil.
>
>> On 2019-09-20 17:25, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
>> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
>> infrastructure in early 2020?
>>
>> Just curious. Here's what I test with:
>> Safari on IOS, and OSX
>> NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
>> JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge
>>
>> Best,
>> David
>>
>>
>>

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2019 2:04AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

That's certainly true, but user testing is substantially more expensive so not may organisations can afford it. It's also a lot more work to organise. However, it's also worth noting that an expert review will reveal issues that user testing does not, so the two are complementary. Neither gives you the full picture on their own unless you do user testing with a massive number of participants.

In an expert review, an accessibility consultant methodically assesses all the content on each page to identify all the accessibility barriers regardless of the different strategies that different users take when using the website.

By contrast, during user testing the participant is given a number of tasks and the test is considered successful if they are able to complete the tasks. This provides valuable insights but it is not exhaustive because the participant may only view a small fraction of the content and use a subset of the features.

Steve

From: Praunicorn
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2019 2:33AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Thank you for your reply Steve, it will be greaete help if you suggest best combination for Chrome and IE and Edge.

Regards,
Sreekar.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Steve Green
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 11:39 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination

You can test with any combination you like as long as you don't fool yourself or your client into thinking you have achieved more coverage than you actually have. Some issues will affect all screen readers, but others will only affect certain ones. For instance, testing with NVDA and Narrator will not find all the issues that would occur with JAWS.

Also, screen readers do not work exactly the same on all browsers. If you test with Chrome and NVDA, you will not find some of the issues that occur with Firefox and NVDA. There might not be many, but there is no way to know how important they are.

There are also differences between different versions of the same screen reader.

You have to learn to live with this uncertainty because there is no such thing as "total coverage" and even 95% coverage would require testing with a large number of combinations. The two combinations you propose probably cover no more than 5%. Any two combinations probably won't cover more than 15% (less than that if you can't use JAWS).

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: Sean Murphy
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2019 3:50AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

That is why orgs should have an inclusiv workforce

My experience is the part

> On 23 Sep 2019, at 6:04 pm, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> That's certainly true, but user testing is substantially more expensive so not may organisations can afford it. It's also a lot more work to organise. However, it's also worth noting that an expert review will reveal issues that user testing does not, so the two are complementary. Neither gives you the full picture on their own unless you do user testing with a massive number of participants.
>
> In an expert review, an accessibility consultant methodically assesses all the content on each page to identify all the accessibility barriers regardless of the different strategies that different users take when using the website.
>
> By contrast, during user testing the participant is given a number of tasks and the test is considered successful if they are able to complete the tasks. This provides valuable insights but it is not exhaustive because the participant may only view a small fraction of the content and use a subset of the features.
>
> Steve
>
>
>

From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2019 4:21AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | Next message →

Given that you will not be testing with JAWS, I would recommend a minimum of:

' Chrome With NVDA
' Internet Explorer with NVDA
' Edge with Narrator

A lot of people also use Firefox with NVDA so you should check that too if you have time.

I would also recommend testing with Voiceover on macOS and iOS and with Talkback on Android. These are all free if you have the hardware.

Steve

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Mon, Sep 23 2019 6:48AM
Subject: Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination
← Previous message | No next message

Regarding NVDA and IE -- it has been my experience that NVDA did not address some of the shortcomings in IE and thus the support with the two will be more limited than other browser/AT combinations and may paint a picture of less access. Given that if you are using NVDA you more than likely have access to a different browser such as Firefox or Chrome it seems like IE and NVDA testing is combination not worth focusing on. If IE needs to be tested it is more likely in a situation where JAWS will be present such as in the US government.

Jonathan