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Thread: Lawyer's Question
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From: Peter Shikli
Date: Sun, Oct 20 2019 11:02AM
Subject: Lawyer's Question
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After learning about the work we do to help the internet become more
accessible, a lawyer friend asked me a question I couldn't answer. What
exactly could a lawyer do to help the disabled?
Of course he could do any number of things for free, but in his
experience free is often too close to worthless, or at least the
perception on the part of the recipient. He's been around long enough
that he doesn't need to pencil out a new profit center. He's definitely
not an ambulance chaser, in fact, he sees some of what he calls drive-by
lawsuits as being morally challenged.
So, in your experience, where could a lawyer do the most good for the
disabled, perhaps an underserved angle to add to his practice -- and how
should he go about getting into that?
Cheers,
Peter Shikli
Access2online
Wilsonville, OR 97070
www.access2online.com
Prison inmates helping the internet become accessible
From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Sun, Oct 20 2019 11:45AM
Subject: Re: Lawyer's Question
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Hello Peter,
To be frank, I think what is needed in the U.S. is legislation. If this
lawyer can help with drafting a bill that would update the ADA to cover
digital apps, that would be the best use of their time.
I think that the fact that I can't find a single 401K provider or PSA
solution that is easy to use with a screen reader is a crime. The fact that
when I go into a company and their payroll and timekeeping systems are
extremely difficult to use, even as an expert screen reader user, is also a
problem.
Web developers are kicking and screaming, for some strange reason, against
using basic HTML, and I don't think websites that are only full of divs
should be allowed on the internet.
I'm sure if this lawyer sat down with experts and users from this
community, we could come up with some method to really tackle the problem
of exclusion that web developers have created.
I think the high level of technical knowledge needed to navigate
inaccessible interfaces by screen reader users, to even work in the most
basic job, is one reason why we have such a high level of unemployment for
blind people.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 10:13 AM Peter Shikli < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> After learning about the work we do to help the internet become more
> accessible, a lawyer friend asked me a question I couldn't answer. What
> exactly could a lawyer do to help the disabled?
>
> Of course he could do any number of things for free, but in his
> experience free is often too close to worthless, or at least the
> perception on the part of the recipient. He's been around long enough
> that he doesn't need to pencil out a new profit center. He's definitely
> not an ambulance chaser, in fact, he sees some of what he calls drive-by
> lawsuits as being morally challenged.
>
> So, in your experience, where could a lawyer do the most good for the
> disabled, perhaps an underserved angle to add to his practice -- and how
> should he go about getting into that?
>
> Cheers,
> Peter Shikli
> Access2online
> Wilsonville, OR 97070
> www.access2online.com
> Prison inmates helping the internet become accessible
>
>
> > > > >
From: Peter Shikli
Date: Sun, Oct 20 2019 12:47PM
Subject: Re: Lawyer's Question
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Message-ID:
< = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Brandon,
As much as I completely agree with you, most lawyers are not
legislators. Their specialty is to stand between legislation and judges
on behalf of their clients. With so much conflicting legislation, I
feel their greatest value is sometimes to make sense of it for the folks
on both sides whose emotions cloud their vision, that is, negotiators
for the many rights with which we are blessed in this country.
What could that person do for the disabled?
Cheers,
Peter
From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Sun, Oct 20 2019 1:24PM
Subject: Re: Lawyer's Question
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One thing lawyers can do is to help educate and support organizations in terms of thinking inclusively with accessible outcomes. Organizations often look toward external counsel for trusted direction. Most organizations believe an audit of a product or service is the solution and they just want an issue to go away so they can focus on their business. Long term inclusion and strong business can only come through organizational change and innovation. So rather than just saying let's make this problem go away -- attorneys can help organization realize they need to address the problem with a long term solution, with innovation, and this will lead to a stronger and more diverse business.
Jonathan
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From: Brandon Keith Biggs
Date: Sun, Oct 20 2019 2:22PM
Subject: Re: Lawyer's Question
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Hello,
Sadly, a right to an autonomous and accessible work environment in the
position of choice is not a right we have in the U.S. Until that happens,
the only thing I'm aware of that a lawyer can do is educate people on
benefits of an inclusive workplace, and file lawsuits against websites that
do fall under the existing 508 laws.
Sadly, if I'm a blind bookkeeper looking for a job, I am still limited to
positions that use accessible bookkeeping software, which to my current
knowledge are 3: Quickbooks, Cash Manager, and Excel. Even within those 3,
accessibility is not very good. This excludes me from most of the
bookkeeping positions in the U.S. and even though the U.S. says you can't
discriminate against disability, the moment a business chooses an
inaccessible piece of software, they are discriminating against future
employees. This type of discrimination is so rampant that even blindness
related organizations sometimes purchase inaccessible or extremely
difficult to use software.
I have talked to numerous lawyers about this problem, and the response I
have received is that no, there is nothing you can do if your new employer
has all their books on an accounting system that you can't use and you are
the bookkeeper. It is an undue burden to switch, and the only other options
are you quit, or you get sighted assistance (AKA, hire another person to do
most of my job).
If the lawyer can figure out how to use the existing laws to solve this
problem, I am more than willing to be the plaintiff, but I have repeatedly
been told that legislation is the only way forward.
I want to see every web app, both for internal and external use be WCAG
compliant. It's completely possible. If there are features (like maps) that
are not accessible, please tell me and I will build a component to solve
the problem that will be WCAG compliant.
Thanks,
Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 11:58 AM Peter Shikli < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Message-ID:
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> Brandon,
>
> As much as I completely agree with you, most lawyers are not
> legislators. Their specialty is to stand between legislation and judges
> on behalf of their clients. With so much conflicting legislation, I
> feel their greatest value is sometimes to make sense of it for the folks
> on both sides whose emotions cloud their vision, that is, negotiators
> for the many rights with which we are blessed in this country.
>
> What could that person do for the disabled?
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
> > > > >