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Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users

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From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Nov 7, 2011 3:24PM

Hi Sebastian

Thanks very much for the initiative and the links, I was not aware of
this project previously.
I have a problem with the first link example
"tagged-exercise-book.pdf" (first url, pdf file, pages 6 and 7,
average temperatures).
This, in fact, does not read as a table in my Adobe X reader with Jaws
13. The sample file that Andrew provided in the post prior to yours
works perfectly, but this particular table is not displayed as a table
in Jaws, and Jaws does not find any tables in this document.
I can't determine what the problem is yet, may be there is a problem
with Jaws 13 (though it found the table in the other document just
fine).
If you want to look into this, we can do it off-list, because I am
curious what is going on and if the problem is on my end or in the
document (which would be bad, seeing as it is a sample document of
best practices).
Feel free to contact me and we can test this out privately and find
out if there is an issue and what it is.
Thanks again
-Birkir


On 11/7/11, Sébastien Delorme < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Birkir,
>
> Sorry I'm so late in answering you :s
> Andrew and Steve gave good examples.
>
> Let me add AcceDe Manuals to it.
>
> Here you can find two examples of tagged data tables :
> http://www.pdf-accessible.com/IMG/pdf/tagged-exercise-book.pdf
> (pages 6 and 7)
>
> In AcceDe PDF Manual (http://www.pdf-accessible.com/en/accede-manuals/),
> from page 57 you can find too more explanation about :
> - tagging rows, cells and headers,
> - linking the headers with their corresponding cells for “basic” data
> tables and foor “complex” data tables (cells linked to their header by
> an ID).
>
> Regards,
>
> Sébastien Delorme
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> Tél. 01 45 26 77 89 / Port. 06 10 70 16 01
> Fax. 09 57 59 77 97
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Atalan
> Accessibilité numérique et sensibilisation au handicap
> Plus d'informations sur www.atalan.fr
>
> Atalan est coordinateur du projet AcceDe www.accede.info
>
> Le 03/11/2011 15:51, Andrew Kirkpatrick a écrit :
>> Birkir,
>> Steve beat me to it, but just to point out that the PDF6 technique
>> includes a working example.
>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2011/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20110929/working-examples/PDF6/table-example-repaired.pdf
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> AWK
>>
>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>> Adobe Systems
>>
>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
>> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:48 AM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF files and marking up data tables for screen
>> reader users
>>
>> hi Birkir,
>>
>> This WCAG 2.0 PDF techniques document may be of use: Using table elements
>> for table markup in PDF Documents
>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20-TECHS/pdf.html#PDF6
>>
>>
>> regards
>> SteveF
>>
>> On 3 November 2011 06:54, Birkir R. Gunnarsson
>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:
>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> Would you have a sample, properly makrd up table, PDF document for me
>>> to test out?
>>> Can you point to a specific website/chapter on marking up tables
>>> accessibly with Acrobat Pro?
>>> If not, I'll just point to your website ado.com/accessibility, or do
>>> some digging around.
>>> Thank you
>>> -Birkir
>>>
>>> On 11/3/11, Andrew Kirkpatrick< <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>> Birkir,
>>>> You can make tables in PDF documents include all of the expected
>>>> table objects, it doesn't matter whether the document comes from
>>>> Word,
>>> PowerPoint,
>>>> other applications, or a scanner even. However, there is a
>>>> difference in the ease of authoring. Powerpoint will give you table
>>>> tags in the
>>> resulting
>>>> PDF if the standard table object is used, but not headings, which
>>>> you
>>> would
>>>> need to apply after the pdf is produced. Word can give you the TH
>>>> tags,
>>> but
>>>> if you create a more complex table from word you may need to add the
>>>> headers/id or scope information in that PDF.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> AWK
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility Adobe Systems
>>>>
>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>>> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Birkir R.
>>>> Gunnarsson
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 7:26 PM
>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] PDF files and marking up data tables for screen
>>>> reader users
>>>>
>>>> Evening all (or morning, if you are strange enough not to check your
>>> email
>>>> last thing at night).
>>>>
>>>> I have seen a few PDF discussions on here, and I know Andrew and
>>>> others
>>> are
>>>> monitorring it, so I hope a PDF related question is ok.
>>>>
>>>> I have been asked to provide feedback on an opinion pole, produced
>>>> by
>>> Gallup
>>>> on behalf of an organization I work for.
>>>> The report is in PDF format (originally created from Powerpoint,
>>>> which
>>> is a
>>>> very bad idea for accessibility).
>>>> After some back and forth with them , and with some good advice,
>>>> I've managed to get the report text tagged correctly, and it reads
>>>> fine (the people I have communicated with at Gallup were not aware
>>>> of
>>> accessibility,
>>>> but they've been very responsive to my suggestions).
>>>> As soon as the report gets to the point where the results of the
>>> individual
>>>> questions are analyzed, the report is, more or less, just a series
>>>> of
>>> data
>>>> tables. Currently they are not marked up, and it would take hours of
>>>> painstaking screen reading word by word, to get anything meaningful
>>>> out
>>> of
>>>> the mess.
>>>> What is the current situation regarding tagging data tables in PDF
>>>> files.
>>>> Can they be read at a similar quality and accuracy levels and
>>> corresponding
>>>> html tables (captions, scope, headings, row titles etc)?
>>>> Even with accessible and tagged text, this report is nearly useless
>>> without
>>>> that work being done, and I worry it would be extensive and probably
>>> enough
>>>> so that it would behard to convince the company to do it (though I
>>>> have
>>> not
>>>> discussed it with them).
>>>> Would it be more sensible to suggest they provide said tables in
>>> Word/Excel
>>>> or HTML formats, or is there a fairly straight-forward way to tag
>>> tables, I
>>>> am not positive, but I am pretty sure the tagging takes place inside
>>> Adobe
>>>> Acrobat X.
>>>> Thanks for any information on this.
>>>> -Birkir
>>>>