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Re: PDF files and marking up data tables for screen reader users

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From: Kevin Chao
Date: Nov 7, 2011 4:57PM

Adobe Reader X and NVDA 2011.3 Beta 1 is able to see the two tables
and navigate them just fine. There's one issue, which is that when
navigating across/down row/column table/data, NVDA isn't speaking the
table header. Is this an issue with the PDF itself, Adobe Reader X, or
NVDA?
"tagged-exercise-book.pdf" (first url, pdf file, pages 6 and 7,
average temperatures).

Kevin

On 11/7/11, Birkir R. Gunnarsson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Hi Sebastian
>
> Thanks very much for the initiative and the links, I was not aware of
> this project previously.
> I have a problem with the first link example
> "tagged-exercise-book.pdf" (first url, pdf file, pages 6 and 7,
> average temperatures).
> This, in fact, does not read as a table in my Adobe X reader with Jaws
> 13. The sample file that Andrew provided in the post prior to yours
> works perfectly, but this particular table is not displayed as a table
> in Jaws, and Jaws does not find any tables in this document.
> I can't determine what the problem is yet, may be there is a problem
> with Jaws 13 (though it found the table in the other document just
> fine).
> If you want to look into this, we can do it off-list, because I am
> curious what is going on and if the problem is on my end or in the
> document (which would be bad, seeing as it is a sample document of
> best practices).
> Feel free to contact me and we can test this out privately and find
> out if there is an issue and what it is.
> Thanks again
> -Birkir
>
>
> On 11/7/11, Sébastien Delorme < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> Birkir,
>>
>> Sorry I'm so late in answering you :s
>> Andrew and Steve gave good examples.
>>
>> Let me add AcceDe Manuals to it.
>>
>> Here you can find two examples of tagged data tables :
>> http://www.pdf-accessible.com/IMG/pdf/tagged-exercise-book.pdf
>> (pages 6 and 7)
>>
>> In AcceDe PDF Manual (http://www.pdf-accessible.com/en/accede-manuals/),
>> from page 57 you can find too more explanation about :
>> - tagging rows, cells and headers,
>> - linking the headers with their corresponding cells for “basic” data
>> tables and foor “complex” data tables (cells linked to their header by
>> an ID).
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Sébastien Delorme
>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>
>> Tél. 01 45 26 77 89 / Port. 06 10 70 16 01
>> Fax. 09 57 59 77 97
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Atalan
>> Accessibilité numérique et sensibilisation au handicap
>> Plus d'informations sur www.atalan.fr
>>
>> Atalan est coordinateur du projet AcceDe www.accede.info
>>
>> Le 03/11/2011 15:51, Andrew Kirkpatrick a écrit :
>>> Birkir,
>>> Steve beat me to it, but just to point out that the PDF6 technique
>>> includes a working example.
>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2011/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20110929/working-examples/PDF6/table-example-repaired.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> AWK
>>>
>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility
>>> Adobe Systems
>>>
>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:48 AM
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] PDF files and marking up data tables for screen
>>> reader users
>>>
>>> hi Birkir,
>>>
>>> This WCAG 2.0 PDF techniques document may be of use: Using table elements
>>> for table markup in PDF Documents
>>> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20-TECHS/pdf.html#PDF6
>>>
>>>
>>> regards
>>> SteveF
>>>
>>> On 3 November 2011 06:54, Birkir R. Gunnarsson
>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>> Would you have a sample, properly makrd up table, PDF document for me
>>>> to test out?
>>>> Can you point to a specific website/chapter on marking up tables
>>>> accessibly with Acrobat Pro?
>>>> If not, I'll just point to your website ado.com/accessibility, or do
>>>> some digging around.
>>>> Thank you
>>>> -Birkir
>>>>
>>>> On 11/3/11, Andrew Kirkpatrick< <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>> Birkir,
>>>>> You can make tables in PDF documents include all of the expected
>>>>> table objects, it doesn't matter whether the document comes from
>>>>> Word,
>>>> PowerPoint,
>>>>> other applications, or a scanner even. However, there is a
>>>>> difference in the ease of authoring. Powerpoint will give you table
>>>>> tags in the
>>>> resulting
>>>>> PDF if the standard table object is used, but not headings, which
>>>>> you
>>>> would
>>>>> need to apply after the pdf is produced. Word can give you the TH
>>>>> tags,
>>>> but
>>>>> if you create a more complex table from word you may need to add the
>>>>> headers/id or scope information in that PDF.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> AWK
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew Kirkpatrick
>>>>> Group Product Manager, Accessibility Adobe Systems
>>>>>
>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>> http://twitter.com/awkawk
>>>>> http://blogs.adobe.com/accessibility
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Birkir R.
>>>>> Gunnarsson
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 7:26 PM
>>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
>>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] PDF files and marking up data tables for screen
>>>>> reader users
>>>>>
>>>>> Evening all (or morning, if you are strange enough not to check your
>>>> email
>>>>> last thing at night).
>>>>>
>>>>> I have seen a few PDF discussions on here, and I know Andrew and
>>>>> others
>>>> are
>>>>> monitorring it, so I hope a PDF related question is ok.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been asked to provide feedback on an opinion pole, produced
>>>>> by
>>>> Gallup
>>>>> on behalf of an organization I work for.
>>>>> The report is in PDF format (originally created from Powerpoint,
>>>>> which
>>>> is a
>>>>> very bad idea for accessibility).
>>>>> After some back and forth with them , and with some good advice,
>>>>> I've managed to get the report text tagged correctly, and it reads
>>>>> fine (the people I have communicated with at Gallup were not aware
>>>>> of
>>>> accessibility,
>>>>> but they've been very responsive to my suggestions).
>>>>> As soon as the report gets to the point where the results of the
>>>> individual
>>>>> questions are analyzed, the report is, more or less, just a series
>>>>> of
>>>> data
>>>>> tables. Currently they are not marked up, and it would take hours of
>>>>> painstaking screen reading word by word, to get anything meaningful
>>>>> out
>>>> of
>>>>> the mess.
>>>>> What is the current situation regarding tagging data tables in PDF
>>>>> files.
>>>>> Can they be read at a similar quality and accuracy levels and
>>>> corresponding
>>>>> html tables (captions, scope, headings, row titles etc)?
>>>>> Even with accessible and tagged text, this report is nearly useless
>>>> without
>>>>> that work being done, and I worry it would be extensive and probably
>>>> enough
>>>>> so that it would behard to convince the company to do it (though I
>>>>> have
>>>> not
>>>>> discussed it with them).
>>>>> Would it be more sensible to suggest they provide said tables in
>>>> Word/Excel
>>>>> or HTML formats, or is there a fairly straight-forward way to tag
>>>> tables, I
>>>>> am not positive, but I am pretty sure the tagging takes place inside
>>>> Adobe
>>>>> Acrobat X.
>>>>> Thanks for any information on this.
>>>>> -Birkir
>>>>>