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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Nov 20, 2012 6:21PM

I am reading this thread, and the following line by Sailesh confused me:
JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
(without activating forms mode).

Are you using a version of JAWS before 10? If you aren't, I would say there
is a bug in JAWS or your install. According to
http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/surfs-up/Forms.htm, forms mode
should activate:

Auto forms mode was introduced in JAWS 10. Now when you press *TAB* or *
SHIFT+TAB* on a Web page and land in a form field or other form control,
forms mode is automatically on. It is confirmed with a sound that is
played. You no longer have to remember to switch forms mode on manually.
Forms mode is also turned on automatically if you use the *ARROW Keys* and
move into a form control such as an edit box. Again, a sound is played.
Additionally, if someone clicks into an edit box with a *MOUSE Click*,
forms mode comes on automatically.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Sailesh Panchang <
<EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Zoe / Bryan,
>
> JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
> (without activating forms mode).
> NVDA does not read the title unless one is in forms mode.
> Using title is simpler as I have maintained all along as compared to
> off-screen label in the situations discussed.
> Failing to markup visible labels as labels and use title instead will
> fail SC 3.3.2.
> It is not alright to simply use title there.
> Sailesh
>
>
> On 11/19/12, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > When you refer to browse mode, do you mean when using the arrow keys to
> > navigate up and down the page in the Virtual Buffer?
> >
> > When title attributes are included on form fields, I'm hearing these
> > announced correctly as form field labels in addition to tabbing using
> > interactive mode.
> >
> > This can be broken if a title attribute is included on a form field that
> > also includes an explicit label element with matching for and ID
> attributes
> >
> > in some ATs though.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "GILLENWATER, ZOE M" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >
> >
> > Hi Sailesh,
> >
> > But if you were using visible labels you *would* hear them read in browse
> > mode, so using title text that is not read in browse mode is a different
> > experience from the norm, and it seems to me a worse one.
> >
> > For instance, if I had three fields for month, day, and year of a
> birthday,
> >
> > and each had a visible label in front of it, I would hear in browse mode
> > something like "Birthday. Month, edit, blank. Day, edit, blank. Year,
> edit,
> >
> > blank." It's clear to me what those fields are, which allows me to know
> > whether or not I want to enter forms mode and fill out this form.
> >
> > But if I got rid of the visible labels and just used title text, some
> screen
> >
> > reader users would now hear in browse mode something like "Birthday.
> Edit,
> > blank. Edit, blank. Edit, blank." You don't think this is a worse
> experience
> >
> > than the former? Sure, I can guess at what each of those fields is, and
> have
> >
> > my guess validated when I enter forms mode and finally hear the title
> text,
> >
> > but why should the user have to do this? Why not just provide hidden
> labels
> >
> > so they hear the exact same thing they would hear had visible labels been
> > used instead?
> >
> > I still don't see what advantage using title has over a hidden label,
> apart
> >
> > from:
> > -- it's slightly less bytes of HTML
> > -- it's slightly easier to implement (if you don't already have a hiding
> CSS
> >
> > class in your CSS, but if you do, creating hidden labels is pretty much
> just
> >
> > as easy)
> > -- it will show on hover as a tooltip to mouse-using sighted users (which
> > could be seen as a disadvantage by some people in some situations)
> >
> > What am I missing? Are these the only reasons why you find title to be
> > superior?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Zoe
> >
> >
> >
> > Zoe Gillenwater
> > Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> > AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >
> > o: 919-241-4083
> > e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >
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