WebAIM - Web Accessibility In Mind

E-mail List Archives

Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Ryan E. Benson
Date: Nov 20, 2012 6:21PM

I am reading this thread, and the following line by Sailesh confused me:
JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
(without activating forms mode).

Are you using a version of JAWS before 10? If you aren't, I would say there
is a bug in JAWS or your install. According to
http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/surfs-up/Forms.htm, forms mode
should activate:

Auto forms mode was introduced in JAWS 10. Now when you press *TAB* or *
SHIFT+TAB* on a Web page and land in a form field or other form control,
forms mode is automatically on. It is confirmed with a sound that is
played. You no longer have to remember to switch forms mode on manually.
Forms mode is also turned on automatically if you use the *ARROW Keys* and
move into a form control such as an edit box. Again, a sound is played.
Additionally, if someone clicks into an edit box with a *MOUSE Click*,
forms mode comes on automatically.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Sailesh Panchang <
<EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Zoe / Bryan,
>
> JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
> (without activating forms mode).
> NVDA does not read the title unless one is in forms mode.
> Using title is simpler as I have maintained all along as compared to
> off-screen label in the situations discussed.
> Failing to markup visible labels as labels and use title instead will
> fail SC 3.3.2.
> It is not alright to simply use title there.
> Sailesh
>
>
> On 11/19/12, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > When you refer to browse mode, do you mean when using the arrow keys to
> > navigate up and down the page in the Virtual Buffer?
> >
> > When title attributes are included on form fields, I'm hearing these
> > announced correctly as form field labels in addition to tabbing using
> > interactive mode.
> >
> > This can be broken if a title attribute is included on a form field that
> > also includes an explicit label element with matching for and ID
> attributes
> >
> > in some ATs though.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "GILLENWATER, ZOE M" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >
> >
> > Hi Sailesh,
> >
> > But if you were using visible labels you *would* hear them read in browse
> > mode, so using title text that is not read in browse mode is a different
> > experience from the norm, and it seems to me a worse one.
> >
> > For instance, if I had three fields for month, day, and year of a
> birthday,
> >
> > and each had a visible label in front of it, I would hear in browse mode
> > something like "Birthday. Month, edit, blank. Day, edit, blank. Year,
> edit,
> >
> > blank." It's clear to me what those fields are, which allows me to know
> > whether or not I want to enter forms mode and fill out this form.
> >
> > But if I got rid of the visible labels and just used title text, some
> screen
> >
> > reader users would now hear in browse mode something like "Birthday.
> Edit,
> > blank. Edit, blank. Edit, blank." You don't think this is a worse
> experience
> >
> > than the former? Sure, I can guess at what each of those fields is, and
> have
> >
> > my guess validated when I enter forms mode and finally hear the title
> text,
> >
> > but why should the user have to do this? Why not just provide hidden
> labels
> >
> > so they hear the exact same thing they would hear had visible labels been
> > used instead?
> >
> > I still don't see what advantage using title has over a hidden label,
> apart
> >
> > from:
> > -- it's slightly less bytes of HTML
> > -- it's slightly easier to implement (if you don't already have a hiding
> CSS
> >
> > class in your CSS, but if you do, creating hidden labels is pretty much
> just
> >
> > as easy)
> > -- it will show on hover as a tooltip to mouse-using sighted users (which
> > could be seen as a disadvantage by some people in some situations)
> >
> > What am I missing? Are these the only reasons why you find title to be
> > superior?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Zoe
> >
> >
> >
> > Zoe Gillenwater
> > Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> > AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >
> > o: 919-241-4083
> > e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> > confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> > entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
> > recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
> this
> >
> > message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> > immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention, dissemination,
> > forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
> Panchang
> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:13 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >
> > On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >> Hi Sailesh,
> >>
> >> I'm afraid I don't understand your feedback. Do you think it's good for
> a
> >> screen reader to not read a form field's title text in normal reading
> >> mode?
> >> Or do you think a screen reader shouldn't read a hidden label in normal
> >> reading mode? Or do you mean something else entirely?
> > Sailesh: It is generally in situations where the UI design limits the
> > ability of developers to place a visible text label (like a search
> > edit box or controls in a table with row/col headers that serve as
> > 'labels') that a title works adequately.
> > In these situations I am not adversely impacted when the screen
> > reader does not read the title in browse mode.
> > So an off-screen label is not a game changer in these circs. It does
> > not add a whole lot of accessibility benefit.
> > It is like a data table: the screen reader does not speak row/col
> > headers unless one is in table-nav mode.
> > Most screen readers speak the alt for an image in browse mode and do
> > not speak the title for a form control. It has been so always maybe
> > for a reason.
> >
> > If the visible label text is not adequate for non-sighted users,
> > appending off-screen text to the label is fine.
> >
> >>
> >> Even if a label is hidden visually, it's still programmatically
> connected
> >>
> >> to
> >> the field, so I don't understand what you mean by this part of your
> >> response
> >> either...
> > Sailesh: Sure, but that association kicks-in only in forms mode and
> > for non-sighted users a label is no different from any other piece of
> > text on the page in non-forms mode.
> >
> > Sailesh Panchang
> > www.deque.com
> > Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
> >>
> >> Genuinely trying to figure this out and do the right thing!
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Zoe
> >>
> >> Zoe Gillenwater
> >> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> >> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >>
> >> o: 919-241-4083
> >> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>
> >> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >>
> >> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> >> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> >> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
> >> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
> >> this
> >> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> >> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
> >> dissemination,
> >> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
> >> Panchang
> >> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:09 AM
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>
> >> Zoe,
> >> Certainly I have seen that behavior where the screen reader reads the
> >> off-screen label as one is arrowing down the page.
> >> But then one is reading content that is not visually available on the
> >> page and in that mode the label is really not programmatically
> >> associated with the form control.
> >> The user has to use his/her understanding / judgment to make this
> >> determination.
> >> Off-screen text that helps to convey structure / info-relationships
> >> (e.g. headings) when no other cues are available is alright but
> >> otherwise visual content should generally match / be in sync with
> >> screen reader output.
> >>
> >> In forms mode, the title clearly conveys the purpose of the control.
> >> This technique is in line withH65 of WCAG 2 techniques.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Sailesh Panchang
> >> www.deque.com
> >> Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>> Hi Sailesh,
> >>>
> >>> One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the
> >>> difference
> >>> between them and title attributes on form fields is that a few screen
> >>> reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in normal
> >>> reading
> >>> mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label always gets
> >>> read
> >>> in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems non-trivial to me,
> as
> >>> hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and doesn't
> >>> give
> >>> you the information you need to be able to decide whether you want to
> go
> >>> into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior with title
> >>> text
> >>> in normal reading mode?
> >>>
> >>> I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced in
> >>> normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so
> you
> >>> have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for. Granted,
> >>> this
> >>> has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a
> >>> pretty
> >>> big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
> >>> problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this,
> >>> using
> >>> regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has its
> >>> place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be the
> >>> technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
> >>> possible, of course!).
> >>>
> >>> I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Zoe
> >>>
> >>> Zoe Gillenwater
> >>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> >>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >>>
> >>> o: 919-241-4083
> >>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>
> >>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >>>
> >>> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> >>> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> >>> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the
> named
> >>> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
> >>> this
> >>> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> >>> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
> >>> dissemination,
> >>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
> >>> Panchang
> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
> >>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>>
> >>> As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
> >>> visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control is
> >>> obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
> >>> (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate a
> >>> visual text label for the benefit of all users).
> >>>
> >>> Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control to
> >>> non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
> >>> and legacy ones.
> >>> Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who might
> >>> need them.
> >>> I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
> >>> and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification users
> >>> unless CSS is turned off.
> >>> Sailesh Panchang
> >>> Deque Systems
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>>> I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
> >>>> specific
> >>>> type of Assistive Technology.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike Burks
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
> >>>> Burks
> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
> >>>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> >>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>>>
> >>>> It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with
> >>>> Dragon
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike Burks
> >>>> 919-882-1884 - Fax
> >>>> 919-349-6661 - Office
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E.
> >>>> Benson
> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
> >>>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
> >>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>>>
> >>>> Léonie Watson wrote:
> >>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
> >>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception
> I
> >>>>> think.
> >>>> ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of the
> >>>> label.
> >>>> The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the title
> >>>> versus
> >>>> linking words.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Ryan E. Benson
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> >>>>> Angela French wrote:
> >>>>> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
> >>>>> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input>
> >>>>> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would
> >>>>> a screen reader say the word twice?"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by default,
> >>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception
> I
> >>>>> think.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the title
> >>>>> attribute brings in this case?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Léonie.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
> >>>>> French
> >>>>> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
> >>>>> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
> >>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text field
> >>>>> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input> tag
> >>>>> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would a
> >>>>> screen reader say the word twice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Example:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
> >>>>> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Angela French
> >>>>> Internet Specialist
> >>>>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> >>>>> 360-704-4316
> >>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>> > >>>> > list
> >>>> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> > list
> >>>> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>
> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>
> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >