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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Bim Egan
Date: Nov 21, 2012 2:25AM

Hi Ryan,

You're right, you've described the default behaviour of JAWS 10+, but it's
also a user option. Users can change the setting so that the JAWS9 and
previous rule applies, so forms mode isn't engaged until the space bar is
pressed.

It's common for advanced JAWS users to work in the old forms mode,
especially for testing, but other users are also likely to prefer it ... I
know people who don't start to fill in a form untill they have arrowed right
through it, to be sure they can complete it before commencing. Auto forms
mode is likely to be switched off for all sorts of reasons.

Cheers,

Bim





Original Message -----
From: "Ryan E. Benson" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?


I am reading this thread, and the following line by Sailesh confused me:
JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
(without activating forms mode).

Are you using a version of JAWS before 10? If you aren't, I would say there
is a bug in JAWS or your install. According to
http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/surfs-up/Forms.htm, forms mode
should activate:

Auto forms mode was introduced in JAWS 10. Now when you press *TAB* or *
SHIFT+TAB* on a Web page and land in a form field or other form control,
forms mode is automatically on. It is confirmed with a sound that is
played. You no longer have to remember to switch forms mode on manually.
Forms mode is also turned on automatically if you use the *ARROW Keys* and
move into a form control such as an edit box. Again, a sound is played.
Additionally, if someone clicks into an edit box with a *MOUSE Click*,
forms mode comes on automatically.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Sailesh Panchang <
<EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Zoe / Bryan,
>
> JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
> (without activating forms mode).
> NVDA does not read the title unless one is in forms mode.
> Using title is simpler as I have maintained all along as compared to
> off-screen label in the situations discussed.
> Failing to markup visible labels as labels and use title instead will
> fail SC 3.3.2.
> It is not alright to simply use title there.
> Sailesh
>
>
> On 11/19/12, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > When you refer to browse mode, do you mean when using the arrow keys to
> > navigate up and down the page in the Virtual Buffer?
> >
> > When title attributes are included on form fields, I'm hearing these
> > announced correctly as form field labels in addition to tabbing using
> > interactive mode.
> >
> > This can be broken if a title attribute is included on a form field that
> > also includes an explicit label element with matching for and ID
> attributes
> >
> > in some ATs though.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "GILLENWATER, ZOE M" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >
> >
> > Hi Sailesh,
> >
> > But if you were using visible labels you *would* hear them read in
> > browse
> > mode, so using title text that is not read in browse mode is a different
> > experience from the norm, and it seems to me a worse one.
> >
> > For instance, if I had three fields for month, day, and year of a
> birthday,
> >
> > and each had a visible label in front of it, I would hear in browse mode
> > something like "Birthday. Month, edit, blank. Day, edit, blank. Year,
> edit,
> >
> > blank." It's clear to me what those fields are, which allows me to know
> > whether or not I want to enter forms mode and fill out this form.
> >
> > But if I got rid of the visible labels and just used title text, some
> screen
> >
> > reader users would now hear in browse mode something like "Birthday.
> Edit,
> > blank. Edit, blank. Edit, blank." You don't think this is a worse
> experience
> >
> > than the former? Sure, I can guess at what each of those fields is, and
> have
> >
> > my guess validated when I enter forms mode and finally hear the title
> text,
> >
> > but why should the user have to do this? Why not just provide hidden
> labels
> >
> > so they hear the exact same thing they would hear had visible labels
> > been
> > used instead?
> >
> > I still don't see what advantage using title has over a hidden label,
> apart
> >
> > from:
> > -- it's slightly less bytes of HTML
> > -- it's slightly easier to implement (if you don't already have a hiding
> CSS
> >
> > class in your CSS, but if you do, creating hidden labels is pretty much
> just
> >
> > as easy)
> > -- it will show on hover as a tooltip to mouse-using sighted users
> > (which
> > could be seen as a disadvantage by some people in some situations)
> >
> > What am I missing? Are these the only reasons why you find title to be
> > superior?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Zoe
> >
> >
> >
> > Zoe Gillenwater
> > Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> > AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >
> > o: 919-241-4083
> > e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >
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