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Re: Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA

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From: Steve Green
Date: May 16, 2013 1:24PM

I largely agree with Lucia, but if you put in enough effort you can develop a very good understanding of what screen reader users will and won't be able to do. There is a wide variety of skill levels among screen reader users so I would not get too hung up on trying to behave exactly like a screen reader user because they are all different.

It's certainly a lot of work though. I would guess I spent a couple of weeks observing screen reader users before learning to use a screen reader myself, and much more time getting fluent in its use and observing more people since then. I would now reckon to pick up at least 80% of the issues we would find during user testing, which is often enough given that user testing itself gives variable results.

Spread across a few months, it's not an unreasonable amount of effort but it's not something you can learn in a few days. Learning all the keystrokes is the easy part. The difficult part is learning how people use a screen reader, how they build and maintain a mental model of pages and how they comprehend what they hear.

Steve Green

-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Lucy Greco
Sent: 16 May 2013 20:07
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA

I don't recommend a dev. even try and fully learn jaws. there are better ways to use a devs time. you should really find a reel jaws user to test and watch them run through the process, because as much as you try to become a jaws expert you will not get the same outcome as a reel jaws user. after all you have a mouse and a screen the temptation to use them is always there. it is valuable to get a screen reader dependent user to go through so not only do you see how your project does but what steps the user goes through to do what you want them to do that sometimes is more informative. Its ok to test a few things as a sited person with haws but you will never get the full useable test without a reel live user.

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
Follow me on twitter @accessaces


-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Akshi Kakar
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:57 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA

Susan,

I am going to be involved in testing our compatibility with JAWS but have never tested with it before. How would you suggest we teach ourselves this process of testing? I have used the demo version of JAWS to test before but I am guessing the actual testing should be more rigorous.

Thanks,

Akshi


-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Grossman [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 2:32 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Another example of role="alert" not being read by NVDA

Wasn't suggesting JAWS as a permanent testing tool. But if you don't have it, i do recommend testing with it on a single item or two, and then considering purchasing it when you see it handles differently than NVDA.

Didn't mention the time limit specifically because I don't advocate it as a testing tool. Do own my a personal copy, and have gotten many corporations to purchase it, after showing them how important it is in testing - by getting them to try testing with the trial.

If companies never try it for testing, and never see how they would benefit from purchasing it, they won't buy it. That's what a trial is.

If I've misinterpreted what trial means, and what the license for long-term testing is saying, tell me.





On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Can I remind everyone that you must not use the JAWS demo version for
> testing - the license terms explicitly prohibit this. You are only
> allowed to use it to determine whether or not to buy the full version.
> Some of us spend a great deal of money ensuring we are correctly
> licensed - we may not like it but it's just one of the costs of being
> in
this business.
>
> Steve Green
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Susan Grossman
> Sent: 16 May 2013 17:48
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Another example of role="alert" not being read
> by NVDA
>
> You can see if it's an NVD only issue by trying with the JAWS demo. (
> http://www.freedomscientific.com/products/fs/jaws-product-page.asp)
>
> Also, there is a support chart on at freedom scientific site: (This
is
> a Word doc
>
> http://www.freedomscientific.com/PDF/visionloss/manuals/DevDoc/JAWS-AR
> IA-Support.doc
> )
>
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Angela French < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:
>
> > >I would question the use of a role in a span tag.
> > >
> > >Have you tried replacing it with a block element like <p> or <div>
> > >and
> > see if it
> > >works then? We have come across issues when employing the span
> > >tag,
> > which is
> > >really more for styling, for purposes other than style.
> > >
> >
> > This is very frustrating to try to figure out what will work in what
> > browsers. Again, using NVDA, Example A on this page (
> > http://www.accessibleculture.org/articles/2011/02/aria-alert/) does
> > NOT read the alert in IE9. It is in a <p> tag.
> > It does get read in Firefox 20.
> >
> > We are under pressure to get this app into production and we cannot
> > seem to get the form validation errors to announce in NVDA (the only
> > screen reader we have)
> >
> > Angela French
> >
> > > > > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *Susan R. Grossman*
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
>



--
*Susan R. Grossman*
<EMAIL REMOVED>