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Re: complex layout tables

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From: Hewitt,Susan (DSHS)
Date: Jan 29, 2014 7:10AM


I have nothing else to add that hasn't already been said but I have no other way to favorite this sentence:

"4. Tables-based layouts are gross and make me want to take a bath whenever I look at their markup."

Really people, take pride in what you do and learn CSS already.

-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 4:50 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] complex layout tables

" Today, there is NO reason to be using a technique that bloats page size, is difficult to maintain, potentially creates problems for a whole segment of users"

I totally agree, but that criticism could equally be levelled at the very latest development approaches. We see websites with 1MB or more of JavaScript (200k seems to be the absolute minimum these days) and dozens of CSS files - single pages on the BBC website use more than 30.

Despite the claims, JavaScript libraries are not accessible out-of-the-box and very few developers have any idea how to make them so. Some are so awful that all the ARIA in the world can't fix them.

By comparison, the accessibility barriers resulting from the use of layout tables are trivial (not that I advocate them of course).

Steve Green


-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Nathalie Sequeira
Sent: 29 January 2014 10:03
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] complex layout tables

Hi Olaf,

Am 29.01.2014 08:20, schrieb Olaf Drümmer:
> so why not introduce a rule such that AT should skip 'announcing'
> (does that apply to anything other than screen readers?) the
> table-ness of layout tables, and just progress through the layout
> table's cell in the intended order?

But... what IS the "intended order"?
Screen readers just linearize table contents.
There is no mechanism in HTML to define which table cell comes first should that (in a Western context) default left-to-right top-to-bottom order lead to incoherent reading order - and why? Because thats not what tables are there for!

Yes, accomodations have been made all over based on the fact that many adamantly insist on still using tables for their layouts.

But in 2014, we can build sites with slim, lightweight HTML styled by CSS - that ALL browsers understand, and insisting on using table layouts IMHO is a sign of ignorance and laziness to learn state-of-the-art (goodness, theyre not even that, just plain middle of the road
actually!) techniques.
Today, there is NO reason to be using a technique that bloats page size, is difficult to maintain, potentially creates problems for a whole segment of users and is not at all in tune with the reality of an increasing variety of devices being used to access the web.

Bottom line: it is up to webpage-creators to kick their antiquated habits. Enough excuses have been made and it really is time to change.

Cheers,
Nathalie