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Re: complex layout tables

for

From: James Nurthen
Date: Jan 30, 2014 11:11AM

Steve,
What does the HTML spec mean by "and the CSS table model.
[CSS]<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/references.html#refsCSS>;
"
Which specific CSS features is it recommending?

I hope it is not recommending authors to style DIVs using display:table,
display:table-row and display:table-cell as that will result in data tables
being exposed to the accessibility APIs in Firefox even if there are no
tables in the HTML page!

Regards,
James


On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 1:46 AM, Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> >wrote:

> thanks Olaf, I am aware of the RFC and what the statements mean.
>
> I have filed a bug against the HTML5 spec
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24447
>
> to make the advice against table use for layout more explicit and to expand
> the explanations of the issues.
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
>
>
> On 29 January 2014 20:59, Olaf Drümmer < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > Regarding the use of the word "should" - here is an excerpt from
> [RFC2119].
> > "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels, S. Bradner.
> > IETF""
> >
> > > 3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
> > > may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
> > > particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
> > > carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
> >
> > so given there are valid reasons, it can be acceptable - on a normative
> > level - to use a layout table.
> >
> > HTML5 then proceeds - in a normative (and actually absolutely strict - by
> > means of the word MUST) manner - what to do exactly when using a layout
> > table (i.e. use role = "presentation" attribute)
> >
> >
> > I would see the task of the accessibility community in ensuring that
> > content in a layout table is presented - by user agents and AT - in an
> > accessible fashion. Given that such accessibility can technically be
> > achieved I have difficulty seeing why banning layout tables anyway is
> > deemed acceptable.
> >
> >
> > Olaf
> >
> >
> >
> > On 29 Jan 2014, at 21:26, Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> >
> > > On 29 January 2014 20:00, Olaf Drümmer < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> I actually do dispute that. HTML 5 even tells you how to do layout
> > tables:
> > >
> > >
> > > patrick is right, tables are for data, that is the semantics they
> convey,
> > > when the normative advice in the spec is ignored one repair technique
> is
> > to
> > > remove the semantics with role=presentation.
> > > HTML5 says<
> >
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#the-table-element
> > >
> > > :
> > >
> > > "Tables should not be used as layout aids. Historically, many Web
> authors
> > > have tables in HTML as a way to control their page layout making it
> > > difficult to extract tabular data from such documents. In particular,
> > users
> > > of accessibility tools, like screen readers, are likely to find it very
> > > difficult to navigate pages with tables used for layout. If a table is
> to
> > > be used for layout it must be marked with the attribute
> > role="presentation"
> > > for a user agent to properly represent the table to an assistive
> > technology
> > > and to properly convey the intent of the author to tools that wish to
> > > extract tabular data from the document."
> > >
> > > note the SHOULD NOT in the first sentence is a normative statement (as
> is
> > > the MUST in the third sentence). In other words use of tables for
> layout
> > is
> > > NOT RECOMMENDED, but the spec acknowledges that tables are misused and
> > > provides advice on a repair mechanism. This advice could probably do
> with
> > > strengthening and expanding.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > SteveF
> > > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > >