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Re: Flexbox layout ordering and tabbing order

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From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Oct 13, 2015 8:02AM

" The idea is that this share information really should be after the article -- but it would be below the page scroll and less likely used. That is people position things visually to get more attention from visual users -- even if it's not the appropriate place for something in the structure. So why force the screen reader user to wade through content that was only positioned as such to assist a person who could see?"

If the page is coded properly screen reader users have more methods available than most to bypass content at the top of the page. Headings, landmarks, and other specific features allow for a wide range of navigation options for the screen reader user. I do support expanding the functionality of user agents (browsers) to allow more options for sighted keyboard users to take advantage of the same features. Or for the development of better AT for keyboard users. But getting something out of the way for screen reader users should not be a design decision if you are using properly structured landmarks and headings. And really if the idea is to get a user to share a particular article or post, placing the sharing icons at the top of the page is probably the wrong place - put them at the start or end of the article. Placing them at the end makes the most sense. It will help people avoid sharing articles and blog posts that they did not bother to read...<wink/>

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:52 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Flexbox layout ordering and tabbing order

> what is the purpose of placing the tools/navigation/etc. at the end of the code order instead of where it appears naturally? That way it is only a few clicks from the top of the page and if there is a skip to main link it is possible to bypass those items as well as the rest of top and possibly side navigation. Is this another case of attempting to "help" screen reader users?

The idea is that this share information really should be after the article -- but it would be below the page scroll and less likely used. That is people position things visually to get more attention from visual users -- even if it's not the appropriate place for something in the structure. So why force the screen reader user to wade through content that was only positioned as such to assist a person who could see? This is a non-win situation as different users will want the information positioned differently. As others have pointed out -- there are other scenarios such as speech recognition users who may want the information available sooner in the focus order. What we really need is the flexibility to have user agents collapse or re-order tangential content like this to meet the user's needs.

Jonathan

--
Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
<EMAIL REMOVED>

703-637-8957 (o)
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-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:16 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Flexbox layout ordering and tabbing order

Sounds like a browser extension that would support keyboard navigation to landmark regions would be helpful. Voice to text technology would help some users if the alt text is intuitive, otherwise a fall back to something like Dragon's grid navigation improves efficiency.

Curious though, what is the purpose of placing the tools/navigation/etc. at the end of the code order instead of where it appears naturally? That way it is only a few clicks from the top of the page and if there is a skip to main link it is possible to bypass those items as well as the rest of top and possibly side navigation. Is this another case of attempting to "help" screen reader users?

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 7:55 AM
To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Flexbox layout ordering and tabbing order

On 13/10/2015 13:38, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> 2. When a site contains repeated information such as social media tools, navigation, etc. above an article or page. While skip navigation techniques could be used they may not always be available to all users. Getting past these areas to find the start of real content can be frustrating and time consuming.

Conversely, though, what if a sighted keyboard user *wants* to get to those tools/navigation/etc? They see them right there at the top, but can't get to them until they tab through the rest of the page/article.
As ever, there is no right solution that'll works for all users or situations.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
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