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Re: Opening modal window without user action

for

From: John Hicks
Date: Mar 31, 2016 3:57AM


apologies, I didn't see that Bruno's message was about A/AA only.

.... ah, the evils of compliance :-)



2016-03-31 11:45 GMT+02:00 Patrick H. Lauke < <EMAIL REMOVED> >:

> I think at this stage we have already established that the modal itself
> fails 3.2.5 (AAA) - just not that specific *informative* example of failure
> relating specifically to windows.
>
> P
>
>
> On 31/03/2016 09:48, John Hicks wrote:
>
>> Well, it is about change of context, surely ....
>>
>> I guess it could depend on what you mean by "New window" ... in the SC we
>> read :
>>
>> "New windows take the focus away from what the user is reading or doing."
>>
>> "The failure comes when pop-ups appear unexpectedly."
>>
>> ... .seems pretty applicable to me.
>>
>> 2016-03-31 10:43 GMT+02:00 Patrick H. Lauke < <EMAIL REMOVED> >:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On 31/03/2016 09:31, John Hicks wrote:
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>> ... I don't see how it doesn't fail 3.2.5
>>>>
>>>> For me it is a violation of this point (3.2.5)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F22.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Splitting hairs, it's not a new window, but a modal dialog in the current
>>> window.
>>>
>>> P
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-03-30 22:14 GMT+02:00 Bruno Girard < <EMAIL REMOVED> >:
>>>>
>>>> Finally, what I take from these exchanges...
>>>>
>>>>> - WGAG has holes in it! Thanks Chaals for bringing it to WCAG group, I
>>>>> hope
>>>>> something will happen in the near feature. :)
>>>>> - Sadly, there is nothing at level A and AA that can stop us to display
>>>>> modal windows after a delay even if the majority tells it is a very bad
>>>>> practice and everyone wants to send unsolicited pop-ups to death....
>>>>> - With AAA level, we can send people to jail... I will visit them and
>>>>> ask:
>>>>> How expensive *were* your attorney fees?
>>>>> - It is better to show modal pop-over at page loads, but unlike
>>>>> helenkeller.org, we should never be able to navigate using keyboard on
>>>>> the
>>>>> elements under the pop-over when it is displayed.
>>>>> - I totally agree with Patrick: "Making the survey (as a modal, or as a
>>>>> separate tab/window, or whatever) appear only as a result of a user
>>>>> interaction on a link or clearly sign-posted button would be the
>>>>> preferred/least problematic option of course".
>>>>> - I continue to hate my actual pop-over after a delay modal solution. I
>>>>> will work hard to have the budget to have this changed. I had like to
>>>>> have
>>>>> a non-conformity argument thought...
>>>>>
>>>>> Should I take more?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to everyone!
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-03-29 6:41 GMT-04:00 Chaals McCathie Nevile <
>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>>>
>>>>>> :
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2016 14:37:05 +0100, Patrick H. Lauke <
>>>>>
>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25/03/2016 11:18, Bruno Girard wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Rakesh,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This change do not happen on focus... It is slightly different. We
>>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> window and give focus to this window. This window appears after a
>>>>>>>> programmed delay, without any specific user action. Does 3.2.1 is
>>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> criteria to invoke for this fail?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It appears that WCAG 2.0 does not have a very specific SC for
>>>>>>> unexpected
>>>>>>> changes of context that happen without user action (be it input or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> focus)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> at AA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmm.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed. I think this is a serious problem actually. I'll take it back
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the WCAG group.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For AAA, I'd say this falls foul of 3.2.5 Change on Request
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/consistent-behavior-no-extreme-changes-context.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it also fails 2.2.4 - postpone time limits before they impact
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> user - again at AAA level,
>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/time-limits-postponed.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elsewhere in the thread at 15:20:22 +0100, Patrick H. Lauke <
>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ironically perhaps, I'd say that if the automatic popup happened right
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> away, and NOT after a timeout (so that the user didn't already start
>>>>>>> interacting with the actual page, only to be unceremoniously and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> unwantedly
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> being yanked off to this popup), then it would be less of a problem...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right. In fact I think the case described in the failure technique at
>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F52.html *doesn't* violate WCAG 2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I raised an issue on that through the feedback form, but I have no
>>>>>> idea
>>>>>> whether that goes somewhere that it can be found by others. Anyone
>>>>>> know?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or
>>>>>
>>>>> should I duplicate it with a github issue?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (this would also remove the problem/annoyance experienced by all
>>>>>> users -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> e.g. the "non disabled" mouse user who is starting to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> read/interact/scroll
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> down on the page only to then be rudely presented with a doorslam
>>>>>> modal;
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this would also, of course, be a problem for users with cognitive
>>>>>>> disabilities, or screen magnification, etc)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> yeah, part of the problem here is that you think you're doing
>>>>>> something,
>>>>>> so you start a sequence of actions (navigation keystrokes, entering
>>>>>> text
>>>>>> through an IME, all kinds of oddness) but mid-way through they are
>>>>>>
>>>>>> suddenly
>>>>>
>>>>> applied somewhere else.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3.3.4 and 3.3.6 - error prevention, limited for level AA and general
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> AAA, where actions that affect user data must be reversible or
>>>>>> confirmed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>> would apply in some of these cases, but the confusion effect isn't
>>>>>>
>>>>>> handled
>>>>>
>>>>> automatically, so it depends on what happens in the modal popup and the
>>>>>> webpage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chaals
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
>>>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Patrick H. Lauke
>>>
>>> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
>>> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
>>> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > >