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Re: Selects with drop downs

for

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Mar 14, 2018 7:49PM

My rant is purely philosophical in nature.
IN reality the web content authors are responsible, and we do all the
JavaScript workarounds and extra testing to make sure our web content
is usable, but I think this is a fundamentally flawed paradigm and
that user agents (browsers and assistive technology applications) need
to do more.
Until they do, accessibility will justifiably be considered resource
intensive and difficult to implement, but it doesn't have to be like
that.

all we can do is to diligently file bugs or promote bugs if already
filed to keep the issues alive on the vendor's to-do list.



On 3/14/18, Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > There are support and implementation differences between browsers
> (Firefox
> matches the string from the beginning, Chrome only matches for a substring,
> IE11 doesn't do anything at all).
>
> The app I am talking about works fine in IE 11. If we look past all the
> bonuses about HTML5, my interpretation of the render would look like:
>
> <label for="country">Select a country</label>
> <select name="country" id="">
> <option value=""><input type="text"></option>
> <option value="USA">USA</option>
> <option value="Canada">Canada</option>
> <option value="Mexico">Mexico</option>
> </select>
>
>
> --
> Ryan E. Benson
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>> A lot of people don't know this, but HTML5 actually has simulated combox
>> code.
>> That is the list attribute combined with the <datalist> element.
>> <label for="search">Search</label>
>> <input id="search" type="text" list="suggestions">
>> <datalist id="suggestions">
>> <option value="suggestion 1">
>> <option value="suggestion 2">
>> ..
>> </datalist>
>>
>> The <datalist> elemet should hold all the possible options, they can
>> be loaded from a JSon file.
>> When user starts typing into the search input the browser
>> automatically displays matching suggestions from the datalist (it
>> shows the value of the matching option elements).
>> In Firefox at least you can use arrow keys to navigate into and
>> through the list, enter to select an option and close it, and escape
>> to dismiss it without selecting.
>> There are support and implementation differences between browsers
>> (Firefox matches the string from the beginning, Chrome only matches
>> for a substring, IE11 doesn't do anything at all).
>>
>> For instance, if you type "ppl" into the field and "apples" was one of
>> the options, Chrome would display it as a suggestion but Firefox would
>> not.
>>
>> If we can file bugs and get the browser vendors committed this is
>> close to being an accessible no-JavaScript-needed solution.
>> I think this and accessibility support of the <dialog> element are the
>> biggest advances that current HTML5 has to offer, the amount of ARIA
>> and JavaScript and focus management that is needed to get those right
>> is beyond most ordinary developers, and I don't blame them.
>> But if they could do it with HTML, it would be amazing.
>>
>> I don't know why this isn't gaining more traction, most web developers
>> I talk to have never heard of this, even if it is in the HTML5 spec.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/14/18, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> > Hi Bryan,
>> >
>> > I will reply off-list. At this stage all I really want is a replacement
>> for
>> > a native combobox, so I have only been testing the Country combobox at
>> > http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Comboboxes/ARIA%
>> 20Comboboxes%20(Native%20Inputs,%20Multiselect%
>> 20Editable%20with%20Substring%20Match)/demo.htm.
>> > All the other whizzy features such as autocomplete can wait until we get
>> the
>> > basic widget working.
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> Behalf
>> > Of Bryan Garaventa
>> > Sent: 14 March 2018 18:09
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Selects with drop downs
>> >
>> > "and the Whatsock designs don't work at all well in some cases. In one
>> > specific case, JAWS 2018 announces that the combobox has been set to a
>> > different value than has actually been selected."
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> > There are many possibilities which may be causing this confusion, not
>> just
>> > the programming of the widget. E.G The purpose you are trying to use the
>> > combobox for, support level differences between browsers or screen
>> > reader
>> > bugs, or configuration settings available within the combobox widget
>> > that
>> > you may not be aware of.
>> >
>> > So, when you get a chance, can you please reply with steps to reproduce,
>> > including the version of JAWS and which browser you are using plus the
>> > widget example you are testing? Also please explain the negative
>> > behavior
>> > that you are experiencing, which will give me a sense of where to home
>> > in
>> > specifically.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Bryan
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Bryan Garaventa
>> > Accessibility Fellow
>> > Level Access, Inc.
>> > <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> > 415.624.2709 (o)
>> > www.LevelAccess.com
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
>> Steve
>> > Green
>> > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 AM
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Selects with drop downs
>> >
>> > I have been testing those Whatsock comboboxes recently and I find that
>> they
>> > only work well under certain specific circumstances. There are many ways
>> in
>> > which a user can interact with even a simple combobox (I have tested ten
>> > ways but there are potentially more), and the Whatsock designs don't
>> work at
>> > all well in some cases. In one specific case, JAWS 2018 announces that
>> the
>> > combobox has been set to a different value than has actually been
>> selected.
>> >
>> > It's worth noting that even when the behaviour is acceptable, the user
>> > experience is substantially different from a native combobox. I find it
>> > disappointing and frustrating that the HTML5 and ARIA specifications
>> > have
>> > not been written such that it is possible to closely or exactly emulate
>> > a
>> > native combobox. It would be interesting to know if there is a reason
>> > for
>> > this. It seems such an obvious thing to want to do.
>> >
>> > I hadn't planned to post these comments yet but I felt obliged to since
>> you
>> > were recommending these designs. I will send Bryan Garaventa my report
>> > as
>> > soon as it is complete. I very much hope that he can fix his designs
>> because
>> > they are better than any other combobox replacements I have tested.
>> However,
>> > I don't regard them as being good enough to recommend to our clients
>> > yet.
>> >
>> > Steve Green
>> > Managing Director
>> > Test Partners Ltd
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> Behalf
>> > Of Brandon Keith Biggs
>> > Sent: 14 March 2018 14:03
>> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Selects with drop downs
>> >
>> > Are these datalists?
>> > https://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_datalist.asp
>> >
>> > Otherwise, AccDC has some fantastic comboboxes:
>> > http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Comboboxes/ARIA%
>> 20Comboboxes%20(Native%20Inputs,%20Editable%20and%20Readonly)/demo.htm
>> >
>> > http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Comboboxes/ARIA%
>> 20Comboboxes%20(Native%20Inputs,%20Multiselect%
>> 20Editable%20with%20Substring%20Match)/demo.htm
>> >
>> > http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Comboboxes/ARIA%
>> 20Comboboxes%20(Simulated,%20Readonly)/demo.htm
>> >
>> > There are several others, but you can find them in the technical style
>> > guide.
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> >
>> > Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>> >
>> > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:54 AM, Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Pardon the title, I am not sure what these things are officially
>> >> called.
>> >> There's a group bent on using select elements aka dropdowns with
>> >> built-in search/filter functions. I believe there was a thread here a
>> >> while ago, but can't find it. Unless I am mistaken, the thread leaned
>> >> towards not using them, even though they can be made accessible. The
>> >> PM and the second developer didn't know what framework they were
>> >> using, and have yet to hear back from the lead, but they think
>> >> Bootstrap
>> >> "or based on it."
>> >>
>> >> Any pointers would be great, since i have yet to get access to their
>> >> code.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Ryan E. Benson
>> >> >> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >>
>> > >> > >> archives at
>> > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> archives at
>> > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> archives at
>> > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.