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Re: Selects with drop downs

for

From: Ryan Benson
Date: Mar 14, 2018 9:41PM


In regards to my situation, the application is built in house, so while that could be a tactic, I can't use it here. I could shut down the use of whatever framework used, but I wanted to see if there was an accessible example to point to. The example that Patrick pointed to this morning was kind of the interaction the application has. While I think the interaction they want is dumb, I wanted more ground to stand on.


Ryan

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 23:13, < <EMAIL REMOVED> > < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> << all we can do is to diligently file bugs or promote bugs if already filed to keep the issues alive on the vendor's to-do list.>>
>
> Definitely, do that.
> But how about another tactic?
>
> Sec. 508 requires the federal government buy accessible software and hardware. Enforce it, especially if you're a government entity or one that is covered by accessibility regulations, such as schools and colleges.
>
> Tell the manufacturers why their products will no longer be purchased, that you'll consider them again in the future if they correct their shortcomings.
>
> This strategy has worked in the past with other manufacturers in the industry.
>
> —Bevi Chagnon
>
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | <EMAIL REMOVED>
> — — —
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> — — —
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 9:49 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Selects with drop downs
>
> My rant is purely philosophical in nature.
> IN reality the web content authors are responsible, and we do all the JavaScript workarounds and extra testing to make sure our web content is usable, but I think this is a fundamentally flawed paradigm and that user agents (browsers and assistive technology applications) need to do more.
> Until they do, accessibility will justifiably be considered resource intensive and difficult to implement, but it doesn't have to be like that.
>
> all we can do is to diligently file bugs or promote bugs if already filed to keep the issues alive on the vendor's to-do list.
>
>
>
> On 3/14/18, Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> There are support and implementation differences between browsers
>> (Firefox matches the string from the beginning, Chrome only matches
>> for a substring,
>> IE11 doesn't do anything at all).
>>
>> The app I am talking about works fine in IE 11. If we look past all
>> the bonuses about HTML5, my interpretation of the render would look like:
>>
>> <label for="country">Select a country</label> <select name="country"
>> id="">
>> <option value=""><input type="text"></option>
>> <option value="USA">USA</option>
>> <option value="Canada">Canada</option>
>> <option value="Mexico">Mexico</option> </select>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ryan E. Benson
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
>> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>
>>> A lot of people don't know this, but HTML5 actually has simulated
>>> combox code.
>>> That is the list attribute combined with the <datalist> element.
>>> <label for="search">Search</label>
>>> <input id="search" type="text" list="suggestions"> <datalist
>>> id="suggestions"> <option value="suggestion 1"> <option
>>> value="suggestion 2"> ..
>>> </datalist>
>>>
>>> The <datalist> elemet should hold all the possible options, they can
>>> be loaded from a JSon file.
>>> When user starts typing into the search input the browser
>>> automatically displays matching suggestions from the datalist (it
>>> shows the value of the matching option elements).
>>> In Firefox at least you can use arrow keys to navigate into and
>>> through the list, enter to select an option and close it, and escape
>>> to dismiss it without selecting.
>>> There are support and implementation differences between browsers
>>> (Firefox matches the string from the beginning, Chrome only matches
>>> for a substring, IE11 doesn't do anything at all).
>>>
>>> For instance, if you type "ppl" into the field and "apples" was one
>>> of the options, Chrome would display it as a suggestion but Firefox
>>> would not.
>>>
>>> If we can file bugs and get the browser vendors committed this is
>>> close to being an accessible no-JavaScript-needed solution.
>>> I think this and accessibility support of the <dialog> element are
>>> the biggest advances that current HTML5 has to offer, the amount of
>>> ARIA and JavaScript and focus management that is needed to get those
>>> right is beyond most ordinary developers, and I don't blame them.
>>> But if they could do it with HTML, it would be amazing.
>>>
>>> I don't know why this isn't gaining more traction, most web
>>> developers I talk to have never heard of this, even if it is in the HTML5 spec.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 3/14/18, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>> Hi Bryan,
>>>>
>>>> I will reply off-list. At this stage all I really want is a
>>>> replacement
>>> for
>>>> a native combobox, so I have only been testing the Country combobox
>>>> at http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Comboboxes/ARIA%
>>> 20Comboboxes%20(Native%20Inputs,%20Multiselect%
>>> 20Editable%20with%20Substring%20Match)/demo.htm.
>>>> All the other whizzy features such as autocomplete can wait until
>>>> we get
>>> the
>>>> basic widget working.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Bryan Garaventa
>>>> Sent: 14 March 2018 18:09
>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Selects with drop downs
>>>>
>>>> "and the Whatsock designs don't work at all well in some cases. In
>>>> one specific case, JAWS 2018 announces that the combobox has been
>>>> set to a different value than has actually been selected."
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> There are many possibilities which may be causing this confusion,
>>>> not
>>> just
>>>> the programming of the widget. E.G The purpose you are trying to
>>>> use the combobox for, support level differences between browsers or
>>>> screen reader bugs, or configuration settings available within the
>>>> combobox widget that you may not be aware of.
>>>>
>>>> So, when you get a chance, can you please reply with steps to
>>>> reproduce, including the version of JAWS and which browser you are
>>>> using plus the widget example you are testing? Also please explain
>>>> the negative behavior that you are experiencing, which will give me
>>>> a sense of where to home in specifically.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Bryan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bryan Garaventa
>>>> Accessibility Fellow
>>>> Level Access, Inc.
>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>> 415.624.2709 (o)
>>>> www.LevelAccess.com
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
>>>> Of
>>> Steve
>>>> Green
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 AM
>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Selects with drop downs
>>>>
>>>> I have been testing those Whatsock comboboxes recently and I find
>>>> that
>>> they
>>>> only work well under certain specific circumstances. There are many
>>>> ways
>>> in
>>>> which a user can interact with even a simple combobox (I have
>>>> tested ten ways but there are potentially more), and the Whatsock
>>>> designs don't
>>> work at
>>>> all well in some cases. In one specific case, JAWS 2018 announces
>>>> that
>>> the
>>>> combobox has been set to a different value than has actually been
>>> selected.
>>>>
>>>> It's worth noting that even when the behaviour is acceptable, the
>>>> user experience is substantially different from a native combobox.
>>>> I find it disappointing and frustrating that the HTML5 and ARIA
>>>> specifications have not been written such that it is possible to
>>>> closely or exactly emulate a native combobox. It would be
>>>> interesting to know if there is a reason for this. It seems such an
>>>> obvious thing to want to do.
>>>>
>>>> I hadn't planned to post these comments yet but I felt obliged to
>>>> since
>>> you
>>>> were recommending these designs. I will send Bryan Garaventa my
>>>> report as soon as it is complete. I very much hope that he can fix
>>>> his designs
>>> because
>>>> they are better than any other combobox replacements I have tested.
>>> However,
>>>> I don't regard them as being good enough to recommend to our
>>>> clients yet.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Green
>>>> Managing Director
>>>> Test Partners Ltd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>> Sent: 14 March 2018 14:03
>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Selects with drop downs
>>>>
>>>> Are these datalists?
>>>> https://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_datalist.asp
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise, AccDC has some fantastic comboboxes:
>>>> http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Comboboxes/ARIA%
>>> 20Comboboxes%20(Native%20Inputs,%20Editable%20and%20Readonly)/demo.ht
>>> m
>>>>
>>>> http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Comboboxes/ARIA%
>>> 20Comboboxes%20(Native%20Inputs,%20Multiselect%
>>> 20Editable%20with%20Substring%20Match)/demo.htm
>>>>
>>>> http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Comboboxes/ARIA%
>>> 20Comboboxes%20(Simulated,%20Readonly)/demo.htm
>>>>
>>>> There are several others, but you can find them in the technical
>>>> style guide.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:54 AM, Ryan E. Benson
>>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Pardon the title, I am not sure what these things are officially
>>>>> called.
>>>>> There's a group bent on using select elements aka dropdowns with
>>>>> built-in search/filter functions. I believe there was a thread
>>>>> here a while ago, but can't find it. Unless I am mistaken, the
>>>>> thread leaned towards not using them, even though they can be made
>>>>> accessible. The PM and the second developer didn't know what
>>>>> framework they were using, and have yet to hear back from the
>>>>> lead, but they think Bootstrap "or based on it."
>>>>>
>>>>> Any pointers would be great, since i have yet to get access to
>>>>> their code.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ryan E. Benson
>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>> >>> archives at
>>>> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> archives at
>>>> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> archives at
>>>> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>>> >>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>>> >>> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >>>
>> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >>
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > >
> > > >