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Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

for

From: Sandy Feldman
Date: May 8, 2018 5:20PM

hey Jonathan,

"the author doesn't want to  prevent the user from making their own
determinations" is exactly why the artist wants his descriptions hidden
from the sighted user. That's well said. It's been very interesting for
me to read these. It's given me an insight into these dreamlike images.

So, for example, the alt on one of the images is alt="Arnie's
grandfather decorating a cake"

Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and medium.
Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.

And here is the visually hidden text, written by the artist:
"My grandfather applies the finishing touches to a crown-shaped cake in
honour of George the fifth's coronation in 1937. Beside him on the floor
is an accordion reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit. On the
wall behind him is a Soviet propaganda poster extolling the benefits of
collective farming, a reference to his radical past. A pair of muddy
army boots betrays his desertion from the Lithuanian army."

Except for the alt none of this has any semantic tagging or ARIA labels.
It's just plain old text, either hidden or displayed. It makes sense to
me when I listen to it with Voice Over, but it would, wouldn't it?

I am wondering if it makes sense to people using a screen reader, and if
there's a better way I could do it.

Sandy




On 2018-05-08 7:08 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> I would also comment that in my opinion there is a difference > between alt text and a caption and they should be different. An >
alternative provides a replacement for non-text content while a >
caption associates the image with the content allowing for references >
from the content. Alt text can also be useful to people with low >
vision who might miss subtle details in the picture but do have some >
sight. With art is difficult as what you see is subjective based on >
your life's experience and the author doesn't want to prevent the > user
from making their own determinations. In that since alt text > for art
may be different from alt text for other images in that you > generally
don't want to describe the image but the function. With > art you may
want to describe the image and not express an > interpretation on the
screen reader or any user. I suppose an > exception to this might be an
art education class where you want to > communicate that. > > Jonathan >
> Jonathan Avila Chief Accessibility Officer Level Access >
<EMAIL REMOVED> 703.637.8957 office > > Visit us online:
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accessibility knowledge? Check out our free > webinars! > > The
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and/or confidential information intended for the use of > the individual
or entity named above. If the reader of this message > is not the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, >
dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is >
strictly prohibited. > > -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum >
< <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Sandy Feldman >
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 5:13 PM To: WebAIM Discussion List >
< <EMAIL REMOVED> >; Tim Harshbarger >
< <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] > [EXTERNAL]
Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... > > I have been following
this thread with real interest. > > I am working on a little portfolio
site for an artist. Usually alt > text is a tough sell to someone in the
visual arts, but this guy has > a good friend who is blind and is right
into it. > > Each image on the "Paintings" page has alt text, and also a
visually > hidden description of the painting provided by the artist. I
didn't > want all the back and forth of long description pages. He does
not > want people who can see the paintings reading the descriptions. >
> http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html > > Does this make sense to
anyone but me? Is there a more semantic way > to do this? Comments and
suggestions very welcome. > > Also - this is a work in progress. The
"drawings" page is not ready > to go. Other stuff is still being
tweaked. > > thanks! Sandy > > > > On 2018-05-08 10:39 AM, Tim
Harshbarger wrote: >> I think this brings up an important point. >> >>
When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to >>
understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? >> Are
you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test >> something
else? >> >> If you are testing against a standard, you want to make sure
the >> tools and process you use actually tells you if something meets
>> the standard. If you are focused on user experience, then you >>
likely want tests that involve actual users using whatever AT they >>
prefer to use. >> >> A developer just installing a screen reader and
listening to find >> out if it sounds right to the developer typically
doesn't achieve >> either of those goals. If anything, the goal in that
situation >> ends up being to ensure the site sounds good to that >>
developer--which ends up likely creating a site that neither meets >> a
standard or provides a good user experience for those people who >> do
rely on a screen reader. Well, I suppose those things might >> happen,
but they would be accidental outcomes rather than >> intentional
outcomes of the testing. -----Original Message----- >> From:
WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On >> Behalf
Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM >> To: WebAIM
Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: >> [EXTERNAL]
Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... >> >> This is
what makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it >> does much less
guess work than, say, Jaws. >> >> >> >> On 5/7/18, Steve Green
< <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: >>> I recently saw a statement
that there are about 1.3 billion >>> websites. I doubt if even 1% of
those have been designed and >>> tested to achieve a good level of
accessibility. Screen readers >>> therefore have to do the best they can
with the other 99%. If >>> some developers are relying on a screen
reader to do a quick >>> test, that doesn't seem a good enough reason to
impair the user >>> experience on the 99% of website where the
developers didn't >>> even test at all. >>> >>> Testing with assistive
technologies is important, but developers >>> should not be using screen
readers to assess the level of >>> standards compliance of their code -
there are much more >>> appropriate tools and techniques for that. >>>
>>> Steve >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum >>>
< <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of glen walker >>>
Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>
< <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and >>>
Captions and Alt-text oh my... >>> >>> I agree the user experience would
be worse, and the screen is >>> intended for the person that needs it
and not the developer, but >>> it also gives a developer a false sense
of accomplishment if >>> their code sounds good. For example, jaws will
try to find a >>> label for an input field even if the developer didn't
code one. >>> That's bad for the developer but good for the end user. Of
>>> course, a11y testing should be done on a variety of platforms >>>
but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test and >>> people
think they're good. >>> >>> Glen >>> >>> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM,
Steve Green >>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: >>> >>>>
Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics >>>> to
clean up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets >>>> them
apart from more basic screen readers. The user experience >>>> would be
far worse if they did nothing more than present the >>>> information
that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Steve Green Managing Director Test
Partners Ltd >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From:
WebAIM-Forum >>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
glen walker >>>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>>
< <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures >>>> and
Captions and Alt-text oh my... >>>> >>>> Screen readers should not have
to clean up bad design. >>>> >>>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would
give them the benefit >>>> of the doubt and say they were trying to do
the right thing >>>> but overdid it. In any event, a screen reader
should not have >>>> to fix it. It should stick with what it does best
and present >>>> the information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Glen
>>>> >>>> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn >>>>
< <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I was just
reading through the story about Alice's >>>>> Restaurant that was in The
Boston Globe this week. While an >>>>> interesting story, it was getting
very frustrating by the end >>>>> with VoiceOver on the Macintosh
reading essentially the same >>>>> description for each picture four
times. >>>>> >>>>> It would read once for the start of the figure once
for the >>>>> end of the figure, then the alt text and the text below
the >>>>> picture were also read. except for the alt attribute on the
>>>>> graphic itself all the text was exactly the same. So, our >>>>>
wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at least one screen >>>>>
reader for graphical descriptions to be read four times. >>>>> >>>>> OK,
I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not >>>>> be as
verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh >>>>> in "Group"
web navigation it won't be overly redundant. >>>>> >>>>> But is this
issue essentially a Browser / screen reader >>>>> issue or a design
issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name >>>>> = alt-text should we be
requiring our Screen Reader vendors >>>>> to clean this up, or should
the underlying HTML generaed by >>>>> Newspapers only include
alternative text if they are not >>>>> using figure /figcaption? >>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Jonathan Cohn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >
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--
Sandy

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