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Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

for

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Jul 24, 2018 4:20PM


Thanks, Steve! That is very helpful.

Your comments point to the challenge of making an experience that is not
only technically accessible but also maximally usable for as many people as
possible. Though it depends on your audience and your ability to pay for
usability testing with people with disabilities, I wonder if one strategy
might be to code in such a way as to provide the most efficient and least
noisy experience that is accessibility-supported, while providing initial
guidance for users who may not be familiar with the more modern features of
their assistive technologies. That may seem patronizing, but there is a
bit of a chicken and egg sort of problem here. If you limit yourself to
techniques that people are already familiar with, even if more efficient
methods exist that are supported by the user's assistive technology, then
it seems like you'll always be stuck with a sub-optimal experience.
Balance in all things, of course, but technology evolves--usually for a
reason--and we should take advantage of the affordances it provides.

Best,
Rob

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 11:10 AM Jonathan Avila < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> I'll add to what Steve has said from a US perspective. I agree with all
> of his comments regarding headings. I also have seen the same challenges
> with training although in my experience people who have had disabilities
> for a longer time are more aware of different products and settings then
> when I started in this field 20 years ago. I have not witnessed the same
> issue with table navigation that Steve did although I do see people tend to
> use older less effective commands like the list of links feature to explore
> a page. Unsurprisingly, people who have more recently acquired a
> disability in my experience are more likely to not be aware of as many
> options. It is my experience that many ophthalmologist after determining
> they can't assist a person is who is loosing vision don't refer the person
> to services although as Steve points out services and community groups are
> available to people with disabilities such as those with visual impairment.
>
> In the US many services occur at the state level through the state
> department of rehabilitation services or it's specific equivalent such as
> the department for the blind and visually impaired. When I started in this
> field 20 years ago customers would receive a week or two of training and
> assistive technology in order to assist them with job placement. At the
> time government programs such as the CAP program at the Department of
> Defense offered similar services for participating agencies for Federal
> employees. In both cases the early 2000s due to budget cuts the level of
> training that people received dropped to a day or two and the list of
> assistive technology that would be purchased was constrained. I'm
> currently not involved with this aspect of service delivery but from what
> I've heard it is similar now in the very limited scope of what people
> receive in the form of training. Other organizations exist such as the
> Lighthouse and similar non-profits to provide services or redu
> ced cost services but it is a challenge to reach everyone with the right
> training and skills people need.
>
> As a side note regarding my comments on the list of links used by screen
> reader users -- I do find that the list of links is useful if you know the
> name of the link you are looking for. It can be an effective way to reach
> something if you know the name. However, if you don't know the name of a
> link you can spend more time trying to read through the list of links
> looking for something that could be found easier through navigating the
> structure of a page. For example, if you were looking for a store locator
> the link might be sufficiently named "find a store" or "store location" or
> even "my local store" but those begin with different letters as such if you
> are trying to navigate by first letter navigation in a list of links you
> will likely have difficulty. A better way might be to search for the word
> "store" on the page. In my experience screen readers have also not
> updated their list of links functionality to support new ways of labeling
> things such as via aria-describedby and
> don't include the current list items, sentence, or table cell information
> in the list of links. In short, usability testing with users that have
> disabilities may reveal limitations in access to training, limitations and
> bugs in assistive technology in addition to bugs or design flaws in a
> website or application. So understanding and taking action on user
> findings as Steve points out is a tricky situation. It takes an expert to
> unpack the findings and figure out the best solution. I'm not blaming
> users here -- so please don't suggest that -- I'm saying that the
> challenges are complex in understanding and addressing the issues users
> with disabilities face in accessing digital content.
>
> Jonathan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Steve Green
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 3:20 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> I don't have any insight into that - there are a few companies like
> Paciello who have people in both countries, and they may have a view on
> this.
>
> In the UK the government funds an Access To Work programme that pays for
> equipment, software and training to help people with disabilities get into
> work. They typically pay for market-leading products like JAWS, ZoomText
> and Kurzweil, but training is often limited to a day or less in my
> experience. I don't know if that is the norm in the UK or how it compares
> with the US.
>
> We have a huge number of disability support groups in the UK, some local
> and some national. However, I don't know how much training they provide. I
> am consistently shocked that even the most proficient participants we work
> with don't know how to use their assistive technologies effectively.
>
> For instance, not one screen reader user has used JAWS' table navigation
> commands in 14 years of testing. Just last week one said "I wish there was
> a way to navigate up and down these columns", and that's not the first
> time. It's the same with ZoomText and Dragon users. Where we can, we
> recommend our clients implement accommodations to assist people like this,
> but sometimes there's nothing you can do.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Robert Fentress
> Sent: 23 July 2018 20:06
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>
> Steve, I see you're from the UK. Do think there might be any difference
> in usage patterns in the states? For instance, what kind of government
> assistance is provided there to train people how to use assistive
> technologies and pay for them? Any other demographic issues that would be
> relevant?
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:01 PM Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green <
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> >> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
> >> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
> >> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
> >> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
> >>
> >> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
> >> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
> >> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
> >> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
> >>
> >> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
> >> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the
> <h1>.
> >> This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find
> >> the H key than the 1 key.
> >>
> >> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
> >> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
> >>
> >> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception
> >> of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
> >> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
> >> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
> >> not understood well enough to be useful.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
> >> Of Robert Fentress
> >> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> >> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >>
> >> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
> >> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
> >> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
> >> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
> >> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
> >> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
> >> (another reason for aria-label).
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
> >> <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
> >> > people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
> >> > recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously
> >> > some people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
> >> >
> >> > Steve Green
> >> > Managing Director
> >> > Test Partners Ltd
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
> >> > Of Jonathan Avila
> >> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >> >
> >> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
> >> > > of
> >> > being the label for the landmark.
> >> >
> >> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
> >> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to
> >> > benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on
> >> > whether this
> >> is good or bad
> >> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is
> that
> >> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
> >> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
> >> >
> >> > Jonathan
> >> >
> >> > Jonathan Avila
> >> > Chief Accessibility Officer
> >> > Level Access
> >> > <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > 703.637.8957 office
> >> >
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> >> > is
> >> strictly prohibited.
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> >> > Behalf Of glen walker
> >> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
> >> >
> >> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
> >> > bad on farmers.gov?
> >> >
> >> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
> >> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
> >> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
> >> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
> >> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
> >> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
> >> >
> >> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
> >> > problem with using a label on a <nav>.
> >> >
> >> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
> >> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
> >> > because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
> >> > I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
> >> > being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
> >> > Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
> >> > label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
> >> > as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It
> >> > would add confusion to
> >> the page outline.
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
> >> > MO < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
> >> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > >> > > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> *Rob Fentress*
> >> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
> >> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> >> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> >> LinkedIn Profile
> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> >> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
> >> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Rob Fentress*
> > *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
> > Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> > <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> > LinkedIn Profile
> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> > VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> > <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> >
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard) <
> http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
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