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Re: Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?

for

From: Robert Fentress
Date: Jul 24, 2018 4:24PM

I meant to say "Thanks, Jonathan." I already thanked Steve. Haha!

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 6:20 PM Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Thanks, Steve! That is very helpful.
>
> Your comments point to the challenge of making an experience that is not
> only technically accessible but also maximally usable for as many people as
> possible. Though it depends on your audience and your ability to pay for
> usability testing with people with disabilities, I wonder if one strategy
> might be to code in such a way as to provide the most efficient and least
> noisy experience that is accessibility-supported, while providing initial
> guidance for users who may not be familiar with the more modern features of
> their assistive technologies. That may seem patronizing, but there is a
> bit of a chicken and egg sort of problem here. If you limit yourself to
> techniques that people are already familiar with, even if more efficient
> methods exist that are supported by the user's assistive technology, then
> it seems like you'll always be stuck with a sub-optimal experience.
> Balance in all things, of course, but technology evolves--usually for a
> reason--and we should take advantage of the affordances it provides.
>
> Best,
> Rob
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 11:10 AM Jonathan Avila < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
>> I'll add to what Steve has said from a US perspective. I agree with all
>> of his comments regarding headings. I also have seen the same challenges
>> with training although in my experience people who have had disabilities
>> for a longer time are more aware of different products and settings then
>> when I started in this field 20 years ago. I have not witnessed the same
>> issue with table navigation that Steve did although I do see people tend to
>> use older less effective commands like the list of links feature to explore
>> a page. Unsurprisingly, people who have more recently acquired a
>> disability in my experience are more likely to not be aware of as many
>> options. It is my experience that many ophthalmologist after determining
>> they can't assist a person is who is loosing vision don't refer the person
>> to services although as Steve points out services and community groups are
>> available to people with disabilities such as those with visual impairment.
>>
>> In the US many services occur at the state level through the state
>> department of rehabilitation services or it's specific equivalent such as
>> the department for the blind and visually impaired. When I started in this
>> field 20 years ago customers would receive a week or two of training and
>> assistive technology in order to assist them with job placement. At the
>> time government programs such as the CAP program at the Department of
>> Defense offered similar services for participating agencies for Federal
>> employees. In both cases the early 2000s due to budget cuts the level of
>> training that people received dropped to a day or two and the list of
>> assistive technology that would be purchased was constrained. I'm
>> currently not involved with this aspect of service delivery but from what
>> I've heard it is similar now in the very limited scope of what people
>> receive in the form of training. Other organizations exist such as the
>> Lighthouse and similar non-profits to provide services or redu
>> ced cost services but it is a challenge to reach everyone with the right
>> training and skills people need.
>>
>> As a side note regarding my comments on the list of links used by screen
>> reader users -- I do find that the list of links is useful if you know the
>> name of the link you are looking for. It can be an effective way to reach
>> something if you know the name. However, if you don't know the name of a
>> link you can spend more time trying to read through the list of links
>> looking for something that could be found easier through navigating the
>> structure of a page. For example, if you were looking for a store locator
>> the link might be sufficiently named "find a store" or "store location" or
>> even "my local store" but those begin with different letters as such if you
>> are trying to navigate by first letter navigation in a list of links you
>> will likely have difficulty. A better way might be to search for the word
>> "store" on the page. In my experience screen readers have also not
>> updated their list of links functionality to support new ways of labeling
>> things such as via aria-describedby and
>> don't include the current list items, sentence, or table cell
>> information in the list of links. In short, usability testing with users
>> that have disabilities may reveal limitations in access to training,
>> limitations and bugs in assistive technology in addition to bugs or design
>> flaws in a website or application. So understanding and taking action on
>> user findings as Steve points out is a tricky situation. It takes an
>> expert to unpack the findings and figure out the best solution. I'm not
>> blaming users here -- so please don't suggest that -- I'm saying that the
>> challenges are complex in understanding and addressing the issues users
>> with disabilities face in accessing digital content.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
>> Steve Green
>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 3:20 PM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> I don't have any insight into that - there are a few companies like
>> Paciello who have people in both countries, and they may have a view on
>> this.
>>
>> In the UK the government funds an Access To Work programme that pays for
>> equipment, software and training to help people with disabilities get into
>> work. They typically pay for market-leading products like JAWS, ZoomText
>> and Kurzweil, but training is often limited to a day or less in my
>> experience. I don't know if that is the norm in the UK or how it compares
>> with the US.
>>
>> We have a huge number of disability support groups in the UK, some local
>> and some national. However, I don't know how much training they provide. I
>> am consistently shocked that even the most proficient participants we work
>> with don't know how to use their assistive technologies effectively.
>>
>> For instance, not one screen reader user has used JAWS' table navigation
>> commands in 14 years of testing. Just last week one said "I wish there was
>> a way to navigate up and down these columns", and that's not the first
>> time. It's the same with ZoomText and Dragon users. Where we can, we
>> recommend our clients implement accommodations to assist people like this,
>> but sometimes there's nothing you can do.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
>> Robert Fentress
>> Sent: 23 July 2018 20:06
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>>
>> Steve, I see you're from the UK. Do think there might be any difference
>> in usage patterns in the states? For instance, what kind of government
>> assistance is provided there to train people how to use assistive
>> technologies and pay for them? Any other demographic issues that would be
>> relevant?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 3:01 PM Robert Fentress < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks, Steve. That's some very useful info.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 1:40 PM Steve Green <
>> > <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Of the participants who have expressed an opinion, every one of them
>> >> expects the <h1> to be at the top of the main content - they really
>> >> don't care if it is preceded by lower heading levels. Behaviours I
>> >> have observed over 14 years of user testing include:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Very few screen reader users use skip links even when they are
>> >> provided and work correctly. Most people never even hear them because
>> >> the screen reader goes into SayAll mode when a page loads, and they
>> >> just stop it and start navigating from wherever it stopped.
>> >>
>> >> 2. Very few screen reader users use the number keys to jump directly
>> >> to an <h1>. Almost all press the H key repeatedly till they hear the
>> <h1>.
>> >> This is only slightly less efficient and it's slightly easier to find
>> >> the H key than the 1 key.
>> >>
>> >> 3. Consistency of structure within a page and between pages is far
>> >> more important than perfect nesting of headings.
>> >>
>> >> 4. I have not seen anyone navigate by landmarks. With the exception
>> >> of "obvious" landmarks such as main and navigation, most people don't
>> >> know what the landmarks are for. As such, they are regarded as noise.
>> >> That's not to say we shouldn't use them, but at the moment they are
>> >> not understood well enough to be useful.
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
>> >> Of Robert Fentress
>> >> Sent: 23 July 2018 18:23
>> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> >> aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >>
>> >> Also, assuming the `<nav>`s and search regions are before the
>> >> `<main>`, do you usually use `<h2>` for those? I think the `<h1>`
>> >> should be reserved for the first thing in `<main>`, so screen reader
>> >> users can use key commands to skip to the main content. It seems bad
>> >> to me to have the document outline set up like that, but I guess
>> >> certain page layouts necessitate it if you are using aria-labelledby
>> >> (another reason for aria-label).
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 AM Steve Green <
>> >> <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > That's my experience from user testing. I watch what keystrokes
>> >> > people use as well as listening to JAWS' audio output, and I don't
>> >> > recall any participants ever navigating by landmarks. Obviously
>> >> > some people do, but I have yet to encounter one.
>> >> >
>> >> > Steve Green
>> >> > Managing Director
>> >> > Test Partners Ltd
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
>> >> > Of Jonathan Avila
>> >> > Sent: 23 July 2018 16:20
>> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >> >
>> >> > > . I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose
>> >> > > of
>> >> > being the label for the landmark.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm assuming authors do this to support users who may navigate by
>> >> > heading and not landmarks -- but they also associate them to
>> >> > benefit people who navigate by landmarks. I'm not commenting on
>> >> > whether this
>> >> is good or bad
>> >> > -- but just a guess on why authors do this. My understanding is
>> that
>> >> > many users navigate by heading rather than landmark from looking at
>> >> > the WebAIM screen reader user survey.
>> >> >
>> >> > Jonathan
>> >> >
>> >> > Jonathan Avila
>> >> > Chief Accessibility Officer
>> >> > Level Access
>> >> > <EMAIL REMOVED>
>> >> > 703.637.8957 office
>> >> >
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>> >> > is
>> >> strictly prohibited.
>> >> >
>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
>> >> > Behalf Of glen walker
>> >> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 10:59 AM
>> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
>> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Hidden headings with aria-labelledby or just
>> >> > aria-label best for for labelling landmark regions?
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Steve. What in particular about using aria-label on a <nav> is
>> >> > bad on farmers.gov?
>> >> >
>> >> > I could see some overkill on their site, but it still works. They
>> >> > have a <nav> inside a <nav> (for the main navigation), which isn't
>> >> > recommended but is not illegal from an html spec perspective. They
>> >> > also use the word "navigation" in their labels for their <nav>
>> >> > elements so you'll hear the word "navigation" twice, once for the
>> >> > label and once because it's the type of landmark.
>> >> >
>> >> > I consider both of these issues a developer problem and not a
>> >> > problem with using a label on a <nav>.
>> >> >
>> >> > Ignoring <nav> at the moment, I've had headings in landmarks before
>> >> > and used them as the aria-labelledby of the landmark but only
>> >> > because it was natural to have a (visible) heading in the landmark.
>> >> > I have not added visually hidden headings for the sole purpose of
>> >> > being the label for the landmark. I don't see the purpose of that.
>> >> > Just use an aria-label instead. If the heading isn't really the
>> >> > label for a section (and I use the word "section" generically, not
>> >> > as a landmark element), then you shouldn't have a heading. It
>> >> > would add confusion to
>> >> the page outline.
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:08 AM, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas City,
>> >> > MO < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > I've found that putting aria-label on a <nav> element can also be
>> >> > > problematic. See farmers.gov for an example.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> > >> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> *Rob Fentress*
>> >> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>> >> Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> >> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> >> LinkedIn Profile
>> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> >> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> >> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > *Rob Fentress*
>> > *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer* Accessible Technologies at
>> > Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> > <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> > LinkedIn Profile
>> > <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> > VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
>> > <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Rob Fentress*
>> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
>> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech Electronic Business Card (vCard)
>> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
>> LinkedIn Profile
>> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
>> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <
>> https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>> >> >> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>
>
> --
> *Rob Fentress*
> *Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
> Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
> Electronic Business Card (vCard)
> <http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
> LinkedIn Profile
> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
> VT Zoom Personal Conferencing
> <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>
>


--
*Rob Fentress*
*Web Accessibility Solutions Designer*
Accessible Technologies at Virginia Tech
Electronic Business Card (vCard)
<http://search.vt.edu/search/person.vcf?person=1154847>;
LinkedIn Profile
<https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-fentress-aa0b609?trk=profile-badge>
VT Zoom Personal Conferencing <https://virginiatech.zoom.us/my/rob.fentress>