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Re: When "Alt" is not the semantically-correct representation of an image

for

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Jul 28, 2018 7:55AM

I wonder if an <svg> element with <text> and role="presentation" would
be interpreted by screen readers are plain text.
SVG icons can be resized and the <text> element can be styled, so for
sighted users SVGs are much more accessible.
It's getting awfully hacky admittedly.



On 7/28/18, Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> Ryan, no worries, and I agree with your point :-)
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> Current Standards Work @W3C
> <http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/>;
>
> On 28 July 2018 at 14:45, Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>> Steve, I wasn't specifically talking about that part or to you, apologies
>> if you thought that. I was commenting on how people were saying how it
>> would work with JAWS and NVDA, but Voice Over may have issues.
>>
>> Ryan E. Benson
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 09:35 Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Ryan, that's why it says in the spec:
>> >
>> > " Sometimes, an image only contains text, and the purpose of the image
>> > is
>> > to display text using visual effects and /or fonts. It is *strongly*
>> > recommended that text styled using CSS be used, but if this is not
>> > possible, provide the same text in the alt attribute as is in the image.
>> "
>> > https://www.w3.org/TR/html/semantics-embedded-content.
>> html#images-of-text
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >
>> > SteveF
>> > Current Standards Work @W3C
>> > <http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-
>> standards-work-at-w3c/>
>> >
>> > On 28 July 2018 at 14:29, Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Just a friendly reminder that accessibility stretches past screen
>> > readers.
>> > > I can't test right now, but this could cause headaches for people who
>> > > magnify the screen versus using a screen reader, depending on how the
>> > text
>> > > is hidden.
>> > >
>> > > Ryan E. Benson
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Jul 28, 2018, 02:40 Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > The HTML spec includes advice/examples along these lines:
>> > > >
>> > > > Images of text
>> > > > https://www.w3.org/TR/html/semantics-embedded-content.
>> > > html#images-of-text
>> > > > Inline images
>> > > >
>> > https://www.w3.org/TR/html/semantics-embedded-content.html#inline-images
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > >
>> > > > Regards
>> > > >
>> > > > SteveF
>> > > > Current Standards Work @W3C
>> > > > <http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-
>> > > standards-work-at-w3c/>
>> > > >
>> > > > On 28 July 2018 at 05:25, Birkir R. Gunnarsson <
>> > > > <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > I was one of the people criticizing role="text".
>> > > > > If you present something as an image to some users you should
>> present
>> > > > > it to all users.
>> > > > > Suppose you feel the need to use a heart icon to express your
>> undying
>> > > > > love for nacho fries:
>> > > > > "I heart nacho fries"
>> > > > > ("heart" being an image of a heart"), you chose a certain style /
>> > > > approach.
>> > > > > You can make it accessible by adding alt="love" if you want the
>> > > > > literal meaning or alt="heart" if you want to inform a screen
>> reader
>> > > > > user that a heart icon stands for love (or, in this case, lust).
>> > > > > Yes, the screen reader will add the word "graphics" or "image" to
>> the
>> > > > > sentence (depending on which one you use). A screen reader user is
>> > > > > used to that, it's the standard for how an icon is presented.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If you wanted to simply express your love as text you could have
>> just
>> > > > > written "I love nacho fries". The cognitive load for a screen
>> reader
>> > > > > user is no greater than that of other users who see text mixed
>> > > > > with
>> > an
>> > > > > image.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > If you are really worried mark the image as presentational and
>> > replace
>> > > > > it with a visually hidden text,, or tell your content person that
>> > > > > mixing text and images like that can present a problem to screen
>> > > > > reader users; possibly others as well, what about users with
>> > cognitive
>> > > > > impairments, they may benefit or be harmed by this approach.
>> > > > > We don't need ARIA to fix what is not really a problem. I have yet
>> to
>> > > > > see a convincing example where this role can be used for a purpose
>> > > > > other than avoiding the word "graphic" to be added by a screen
>> > reader.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On 7/27/18, Duff Johnson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>> > > > > > Hi Steve,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >>> But role="text" is not a
>> > > > > >>> documented role (yet?).
>> > > > > >>
>> > > > > >> It was dumped from ARIA as there was not consensus on how it
>> > should
>> > > > be
>> > > > > >> implemented.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Boo. Hiss. This should get another look.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Or… add an "ActualText" attribute to HTML 5.3.. :-)
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Duff.
>> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >
>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >
>> > >> > >> > >> > >> >
>> >> >> >> >>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.