WebAIM - Web Accessibility In Mind

E-mail List Archives

Re: SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names

for

From: Wolfgang Berndorfer
Date: May 4, 2019 3:12PM

Hi all,
Thanks for inputs on acoustically relevant text design for parts of pages!
I just consulted additionally 3.1.6 (Pronunciation) to get probable further input. But this SC treats pronunciation of issues within *one* language. So it doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.
An interpretation of the SC in the W3C understanding section is not available yet. So we have to and may discuss.

I try a first summary of the discussion and further questions. So please take a choice for following questions:

1. Conforming to SC 3.1.2 language attribution for proper names in foreign languages is necessary:
a) Never. The SC says, proper names are an exception.
b) Conditionally: Principle 3 is about *understanding* and proper names have also to be *acoustically* understandable.

2. Conforming to SC 3.1.2 attributions are *allowed*:
a) Never. Many changes of speech synthesizer languages are just irritating.
b) Conditionally: Depending on user experience and hereby especially accessibility experience, language attribution can and should be considered.

3. Following contexts should be mentioned for attribution of foreign language:
- Block elements: Foreign language expressions in navigation-areas like "homepage" or "facebook" only need small effort in the template for the whole webside to get acoustically precision. So attribute the language change!
- Usability: Whom is the text for? Experienced screen reader users are used to understand the wrong pronunciation of "Homepage", "Facebook" and the like in their default non-english synthesizer.
- …

I fear, a recommendation for relying usability issues can't be decided without surveys of AT user preferences.
Ideas for further clarification?
Thanks!
Wolfgang

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] Im Auftrag von John Foliot
Gesendet: Freitag, 03. Mai 2019 21:25
An: WebAIM Discussion List
Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names

Hi All,

I think, in the end, this comes down to a matter of subjective
determination.

For example, Wolfgang's name may or may not be pronounced with an emphasis
on the "W" sound, but perhaps a more "V" sound (Volfgang), that may or may
not matter in some contexts, but in others may have a significant impact.
(For example, in a literary context).

In other circumstances, some "names" may be more problematic than others:
for example, my name in French is Jean (J E A N), which *should* be
pronounced as (something approximating) "jzawn" (with a very soft N), and /
but certainly not "Geen". In the context of an email, no harm, no foul; but
in other contexts it may make a significant difference.

The exception in WCAG states: *Proper names need no lang-attribution, if
the pronunciation between habitual and synthesized listening only differs
in nuances of accentuation or intonation ,* and I've offered 2 different
scenarios where the first (Wolfgang) likely meets this exception, but the
French variant of my name (Jean) would likely require the lang attribute to
ensure proper pronunciation.

Finally, the exception is offering times when adding the lang attribute is
*optional*, but that does not mean that you cannot do so. So (again)
depending on the context, it remains a subjective call on the content
author: if you feel it is correct to do so, do so.

HTH

JF

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:07 PM < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> No. I am thinking of situations where the Web developer does not have
> background information about the name Perhaps they can do a Web search to
> determine the relevant nation and language.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Wolfgang Berndorfer
> Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 2:13 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
>
> Hi Jeff,
> I don't know of any online resources about how proper names are pronounced
> or should be pronounced. How they are pronounced by a speech engine, you
> can
> test with a screen reader.
> But: How they should be pronounced, is my question. And technically that
> means, when should a proper name get a lang-attribute, if it's not a proper
> name of the default language.
> You mentioned an older guide for newspapers. Note, that my issue is about
> acoustic representation of proper names.
> Did this help?
> Wolfgang
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] Im Auftrag
> von <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Gesendet: Freitag, 03. Mai 2019 17:41
> An: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> Betreff: Re: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
>
> Hello Wolfgang,
> Are there any online resources for identifying how proper names are
> pronounced? Content developers are bound to encounter names where they do
> not know what language to use.
> Years ago, I helped maintain a newspaper style guide that included some
> pronunciation rules. I think this was done to help reporters be informed
> when dealing with the public. We did not give this guide out.
> Jeff Gutsell
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Wolfgang Berndorfer
> Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2019 4:35 PM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: [WebAIM] SC 3.1.2 lang exception: proper names
>
> Hi especially non-English native speakers,
>
>
>
> SC 3.1.2 takes out *proper names* from the obligation to attribute phrases,
> when phrase language differs from the language of the page. But why and
> when?
>
>
>
> I didn't find any further information in the W3C understanding section or
> in
> the archives of this discussion list, except for following small hint in
> the
> W3C understanding section:
>
>
> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/meaning-other-lang-id.html#meanin
> g-other-lang-id-188-head
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/meaning-other-lang-id.html#meaning-other-lang-id-188-head>
>
> "Providing language markup on proper names to facilitate correct
> pronunciation by screen readers (future link)"
>
>
>
> So I ask You for correction and comments to my following thoughts:
>
>
>
> 1. The pronunciation of the proper name through synthesized speech should
> sound similar to the pronunciation of the name in broadcast media in the
> default language of the document.
>
>
>
> German language radio stations commonly pronounce the name of English or
> French persons in an English or French way. French radio stations on the
> other hand pronounce any name usually in a French way. This is what
> listeners are used to and should hear from their speech engine.
>
>
>
> For example the name of the former French president, François Hollande, on
> German stations always was pronounced like it would have been in French. So
> no screen reader user would know, whom it's about, if "Hollande" was
> pronounced via German sythesizers. And for the English community on the
> other hand: Who is the man who is pronounced in German like Shwurzenega?
>
>
>
> So what stays from the exception for proper names in 3.1.2?:
>
>
>
> 2. Proper names need no lang-attribution, if the pronunciation between
> habitual and synthesized listening only differs in nuances of accentuation
> or intonation.
>
>
>
> Thanks for input!
>
>
>
> Wolfgang
>
> > > at
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > at
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > at
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > > > >


--
*​John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative
Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
deque.com