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Re: Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?

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From: Paul Rayius
Date: May 27, 2020 4:30PM


As per ISO 32000, one of the intents of PDF is that the "accessible layer" and the visual layer are independent of each other.

Paul Rayius
Director of Training
CommonLook

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Ilana Gordon
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 5:19 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?

Agree so completely!

Ilana

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 5:11 PM L Snider < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> What I have been wondering since Acrobat came out with the Z-Order and
> Tags in the dark ages, why the heck are they still separate in 2020?
> Can someone enlighten me on why PDFs have to have so many layers, and
> why they can't be converted to one layer...so we just remediate one
> layer? I am getting increasingly frustrated with tech from the 2000s...
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Rayius < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Ilana,
> > There's often a lot of question/ debate about this. When it comes
> > to PDF standards (both ISO 32000 and PDF/UA, as well as WCAG 2.0 and
> > 2.1)
> they're
> > all quite clear that the reading order in a PDF shall be determined
> > by
> the
> > order of the tags. (To be more clear, WCAG doesn't specify the
> > reading order "rules" for PDF but does provide some guidance in the
> > WCAG
> > Techniques.)
> >
> > The confusion comes into play because some assistive technologies
> > don't actually follow the standards and so they'll read content from
> > "other areas" in a PDF - for example from the Content and or
> > "Z-Order" pane in Acrobat. (The "Z-Order" pane is the one labeled
> > "Order" but many people call it the "Z-Order" because of the "Z" in
> > the icon.)
> >
> > The problem, however, is that as accessible document creators and/or
> > remediators, we can't possibly be called on to remediate according
> > to
> how a
> > particular processor or AT will handle a PDF. In fact, to that
> > point,
> one
> > of the great things about WCAG is that it's intended for
> > accessibility while being technology independent. Personally, I
> > think it's time for
> PDF
> > processors and AT developers to be held accountable and that their
> products
> > should adhere to the standards that are not only available but also
> > achievable. But, that's my soapbox.
> >
> > I hope this helps to clarify, though, that the reading order in a
> > PDF is to be determined by the order of the Tags and not the "Z-Order."
> >
> > Best,
> > Paul
> >
> > Paul Rayius
> > Director of Training
> > CommonLook
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
> > Of Ilana Gordon
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 12:56 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> >
> > I wish they had a checklist. They are a moving target and keep
> > asking for things that seem over the top and in additional to the HHS checklist.
> >
> > Ilana
> >
> > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:46 PM Ryan E. Benson
> > < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Are you talking to the agency 508 Coordinator directly, or
> > > somebody
> else?
> > > Does the agency have a checklist?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ryan E. Benson
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:23 PM Ilana Gordon
> > > < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I should clarify that this is specifically for PDFs. And some
> > > > government employee says it's a requirements.
> > > >
> > > > Ilana
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:17 PM Steve Green <
> > > > <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Who is saying it's absolutely necessary? I can see how it
> > > > > might cause accessibility issues when the layout of pages
> > > > > change as they are
> > > zoomed,
> > > > > but it's by no means inevitable.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, I tend to regard the presence of "z-index"
> > > > > attributes as a warning that there might be other nastiness
> > > > > because it suggests the
> > > > design
> > > > > is fundamentally flawed. It's the same as when you see
> > > > > positive
> > > > "tabindex"
> > > > > attributes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve Green
> > > > > Managing Director
> > > > > Test Partners Ltd
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On
> > > > > Behalf Of Ilana Gordon
> > > > > Sent: 27 May 2020 16:58
> > > > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > > > Subject: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> > > > >
> > > > > Can the group weigh in on the latest techniques and efficacy
> > > > > regarding Z-Order and Tag Order having to match and why this
> > > > > would be absolutely necessary for Accessibility?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm having many discussions with government 508 officers going
> > > > > around
> > > in
> > > > > circles regarding this issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any info is appreciated.
> > > > > Ilana
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ilana Gordon
> > > > > CEO
> > > > > Word Wizards, Inc
> > > > > 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > > > > Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > > > > *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > > > > *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > > > > www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > List
> > > archives
> > > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ilana Gordon
> > > > CEO
> > > > Word Wizards, Inc
> > > > 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > > > Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > > > *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > > > *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > > > www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ilana Gordon
> > CEO
> > Word Wizards, Inc
> > 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > >
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Ilana Gordon
CEO
Word Wizards, Inc
8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
Silver Spring, MD 20910
*v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
*Direct: 240-380-2639*
www.wordwizardsinc.com