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FW: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.

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From: Mark Stimson
Date: Jul 22, 2004 8:43AM







FW: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.




Gary,


I've also searched for an answer to that question a couple of years ago, and never came up with any decent data or references.  Perhaps there have been some attempts to obtain demographic data of screen reader users since then.  I'm forwarding you a study I received a couple months ago by Microsoft and Forrester Data, a private research firm, called "AT's Wide Impact - a Forrester Data & Microsoft Research Report."  It's probably the closest thing I've seen to good demographic data so far.  If you do come across any other studies I would surely be grateful if you could let me know about them.  Again, I haven't conducted a "thorough" lit search in at least 2 years, so I'm sure there's stuff out there I don't know about.

Best regards,

Mark


P.S. Gary, I'm forwarding you the article in a separate email so that I don't bombard the WebAIM Discussion List with a large attachment.

P.S.S. WebAIM Discussion folks, if any of you would like me to forward you a copy of the AT Report to your personal email address, send me a response and let me know if you prefer MS Word or Adobe PDF.


Mark  Stimson,  Ph.D.

Access Technology Specialist

Sensory Access Foundation

1142 West Evelyn Avenue

Sunnyvale, CA  94086

Ph:  408-245-7330, extension 32

Fax: 408-245-3762

<EMAIL REMOVED>

www.sensoryaccess.com


SAF Mission: To assist people who are blind or visually impaired to obtain or retain competitive employment by providing the highest quality access technology assessment, computer training, job placement and accommodation services with a goal of achieving 100% job retention.


-----Original Message-----

From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:02 AM

To: Mark Stimson

Subject: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.



WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: total number of screen readers

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:41:46 -0600


Hey. I am currently doing research for my company for an article about

web accessibility. I need a ballpark figure of how many people (US or

worldwide) use screen reader software. I tried asking GW Micro for

their sales figures, but they wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the

makers of JAWS, but that figure would not be very accurate, since there

are so many other screen readers out there. Does anybody know where I

could find an estimate of the total number of people who use screen

readers?


Gary


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Flash into

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:59:04 -0600


I would suggest having your index page be something that has 2 links: &amp;quot;flash&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;non-flash&amp;quot;, then they click either link they want.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:00:40 -0600







I have an

interesting delima.&amp;amp;nbsp; I am working on a new web site for our organization

and am including a site map.&amp;amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;amp;nbsp; Within major

sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs that

we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.&amp;amp;nbsp; A program may

include training so there is a link to training for example.&amp;amp;nbsp; This does not

pose a problem for the pages within the section.&amp;amp;nbsp; However when those links

are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links that say

&amp;quot;training.&amp;quot;

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Bobby correctly

flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

&amp;amp;nbsp;

A visitor using a

screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their

browser will be confused by the duplicate named links.&amp;amp;nbsp; However, to add the

program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be very

annoying as well.

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Any suggestions from

this group?

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Thanks,

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Mike

Moore


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:14:42 -0600







I tend to do this with the &amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link being visible

and the program name wrapped in a &amp;amp;lt;span

class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;.&amp;amp;nbsp; Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none so

that doesn't work

.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

&amp;amp;nbsp;

&amp;amp;nbsp;

&amp;amp;lt;a

href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;Training &amp;amp;lt;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;for

Program&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/a&amp;amp;gt;

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Sandra

Clark




From: mmoore [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PMTo: WebAIM

Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG

13.1


I have an

interesting delima.&amp;amp;nbsp; I am working on a new web site for our organization

and am including a site map.&amp;amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;amp;nbsp; Within major

sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs that

we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.&amp;amp;nbsp; A program may

include training so there is a link to training for example.&amp;amp;nbsp; This does not

pose a problem for the pages within the section.&amp;amp;nbsp; However when those links

are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links that say

&amp;quot;training.&amp;quot;

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Bobby correctly

flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

&amp;amp;nbsp;

A visitor using a

screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their

browser will be confused by the duplicate named links.&amp;amp;nbsp; However, to add the

program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be very

annoying as well.

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Any suggestions from

this group?

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Thanks,

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Mike

Moore


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:31:58 -0600


check out the new article on the Webaim website:

An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML Content


-----Original Message-----

From: &amp;quot;sllists&amp;quot; &amp;lt; <EMAIL REMOVED> &amp;gt;

To: &amp;quot;WebAIM Discussion List&amp;quot; &amp;lt; <EMAIL REMOVED> &amp;gt;

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31 -0400

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1


I tend to do this with the &amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link being visible and the program

name wrapped in a &amp;lt;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;.&amp;nbsp; Unfortunately Jaws honors

display:none so that doesn't work

..hidden{

width:1px;

position:absolute;

left:0;

top:-100px;

height:1px;

overflow:hidden;

}

&amp;nbsp;

&amp;nbsp;

&amp;lt;a href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Training &amp;lt;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;gt;for Program&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;

&amp;nbsp;

Sandra Clark


&amp;nbsp; _____&amp;nbsp;


From: mmoore [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PM

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1



I have an interesting delima.&amp;nbsp; I am working on a new web site for our

organization and am including a site map.&amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;nbsp; Within major

sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs

that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.&amp;nbsp; A program

may include training so there is a link to training for example.&amp;nbsp; This does

not pose a problem for the pages within the section.&amp;nbsp; However when those

links are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links that

say &amp;quot;training.&amp;quot;

&amp;nbsp;

Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

&amp;nbsp;

A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link

list feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate named links..

However, to add the program name to all of the links relating to that

program would likely be very annoying as well.

&amp;nbsp;

Any suggestions from this group?

&amp;nbsp;

Thanks,

&amp;nbsp;

Mike Moore



Shane Anderson

Programmer Analyst

Web Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM.org)


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:57 -0600


I have read the article that you mentioned but I am still concerned about

the annoyance factor of adding the program name to the links - each section

would need to have seven or eight links with the hidden program name.&amp;nbsp; The

screen reader would read &amp;quot;program training&amp;quot; &amp;quot;program schedule&amp;quot; &amp;quot;program

participants&amp;quot; etc.&amp;nbsp; Then again maybe I am just being overly cautious.


Mike


-----Original Message-----

From: Shane [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:32 PM

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1



check out the new article on the Webaim website:

An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML Content


-----Original Message-----

From: &amp;quot;sllists&amp;quot; &amp;lt; <EMAIL REMOVED> &amp;gt;

To: &amp;quot;WebAIM Discussion List&amp;quot; &amp;lt; <EMAIL REMOVED> &amp;gt;

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31 -0400

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1


I tend to do this with the &amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link being visible and the program

name wrapped in a &amp;lt;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;.&amp;nbsp; Unfortunately Jaws honors

display:none so that doesn't work .hidden{ width:1px; position:absolute;

left:0; top:-100px; height:1px; overflow:hidden; }

&amp;nbsp;

&amp;nbsp;

&amp;lt;a href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;Training &amp;lt;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;gt;for Program&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;

&amp;nbsp;

Sandra Clark


&amp;nbsp; _____&amp;nbsp;


From: mmoore [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PM

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1



I have an interesting delima.&amp;nbsp; I am working on a new web site for our

organization and am including a site map.&amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;nbsp; Within major

sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs

that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.&amp;nbsp; A program

may include training so there is a link to training for example.&amp;nbsp; This does

not pose a problem for the pages within the section.&amp;nbsp; However when those

links are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links that

say &amp;quot;training.&amp;quot;

&amp;nbsp;

Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

&amp;nbsp;

A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link

list feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate named links.

However, to add the program name to all of the links relating to that

program would likely be very annoying as well.

&amp;nbsp;

Any suggestions from this group?

&amp;nbsp;

Thanks,

&amp;nbsp;

Mike Moore



Shane Anderson

Programmer Analyst

Web Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM.org)


----

To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: total number of screen readers

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:40:44 -0600


Well, why not check with your local society for the blind? In Canada, its

the CNIB (Canadian National Institute for the Blind) and every country is

likely to have something similar. They may not have global figures but they

would probably have national stats. They would know the total number of

visually impaired as well as the number who are currently online. National

statistics bodies will probably also have that information, although it

would probably be much more difficult to track down.


&amp;gt; From: &amp;quot;garymm&amp;quot; &amp;lt; <EMAIL REMOVED> &amp;gt;

&amp;gt; Reply-To: &amp;quot;WebAIM Discussion List&amp;quot; &amp;lt; <EMAIL REMOVED> &amp;gt;

&amp;gt; Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:41:07 -0700

&amp;gt; To: &amp;quot;WebAIM Discussion List&amp;quot; &amp;lt; <EMAIL REMOVED> &amp;gt;

&amp;gt; Subject: [WebAIM] total number of screen readers

&amp;gt;

&amp;gt;

&amp;gt; Hey. I am currently doing research for my company for an article about

&amp;gt; web accessibility. I need a ballpark figure of how many people (US or

&amp;gt; worldwide) use screen reader software. I tried asking GW Micro for

&amp;gt; their sales figures, but they wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the

&amp;gt; makers of JAWS, but that figure would not be very accurate, since there

&amp;gt; are so many other screen readers out there. Does anybody know where I

&amp;gt; could find an estimate of the total number of people who use screen

&amp;gt; readers?

&amp;gt;

&amp;gt; Gary

&amp;gt;

&amp;gt; ----

&amp;gt; To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

&amp;gt;

&amp;gt;


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Skip links (in-page links) and the keyboard

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:56:17 -0600


I just updated a study of the problems and possibilities of skip links at

http://jimthatcher.com/skipnav.htm. The important news is at the very bottom

of that page. There is a pretty simple technique to be sure that your

in-page links work from the keyboard. Just do it like this:


&amp;lt;span style=&amp;quot;width: 100%;&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a name=&amp;quot;main&amp;quot; id=&amp;quot;main&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;


This technique is less of a hack than placing the anchor in a table - a

technique used at http://WebAIM.org. The two techniques have a common

aspect. Both place the anchor in some construct with width. That seems to be

the thing that undoes/fixes the IE6 bug.



Jim

Accessibility, What Not to do: http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.

Web Accessibility Tutorial: http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:34:26 -0600









Don't

take this personally but I hate excessive markup for the purpose of applying

style such as a series of nested divs whose role is only to apply different

backgrounds to the same content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique

recently discussed at AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/)

and this code below smacks of the same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and

difficult for others who work with you&amp;amp;nbsp;or after you to maintain.&amp;amp;nbsp;Why

not simply use the Title attribute to add more information?

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Jules

-----------------------------------------------

Julian Rickards A/Digitial Publications Distribution

Coordinator Publication Services

Section, Ministry of Northern

Development and Mines, Vox:

705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960


&amp;nbsp; -----Original Message-----From: sllists

&amp;nbsp; [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:13

&amp;nbsp; PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site

&amp;nbsp; Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

&amp;nbsp; I tend to do this with the &amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link being visible

&amp;nbsp; and the program name wrapped in a &amp;amp;lt;span

&amp;nbsp; class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;.&amp;amp;nbsp; Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none

&amp;nbsp; so that doesn't work

&amp;nbsp; ..hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

&amp;nbsp; &amp;amp;nbsp;

&amp;nbsp; &amp;amp;nbsp;

&amp;nbsp; &amp;amp;lt;a href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;Training &amp;amp;lt;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;for

&amp;nbsp; Program&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/a&amp;amp;gt;


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <EMAIL REMOVED>

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:49:39 -0600







Not taken personally :)

&amp;amp;nbsp;

My experience with the title attribute is that a)&amp;amp;nbsp;I

don't feel that the use of titles meet the WCAG guideline 13.1 &amp;amp;nbsp;of &amp;quot;link

text must be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context&amp;quot;.&amp;amp;nbsp; b)

not every screen reader is configured to read titles out of the box (or many of

them&amp;amp;nbsp;can be reconfigured to either read or

not read titles) so I can't be sure that it would even be read.&amp;amp;nbsp;


&amp;amp;nbsp;

I don't think the maintenance of it is that difficult,

mainly because most of what I would use it for is dynamically programmed

anyways. Its a technique, I've found effective, but if someone comes

up with a better way that will meet standards and work, then I'd love to hear

it.

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Sandy Clark



From: julian.rickards

[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004

9:33 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]

Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1


Don't

take this personally but I hate excessive markup for the purpose of applying

style such as a series of nested divs whose role is only to apply different

backgrounds to the same content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique

recently discussed at AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/)

and this code below smacks of the same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and

difficult for others who work with you&amp;amp;nbsp;or after you to maintain.&amp;amp;nbsp;Why

not simply use the Title attribute to add more information?

&amp;amp;nbsp;

Jules

-----------------------------------------------

Julian Rickards A/Digitial Publications Distribution

Coordinator Publication Services

Section, Ministry of Northern

Development and Mines, Vox:

705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960


&amp;nbsp; -----Original Message-----From: sllists

&amp;nbsp; [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:13

&amp;nbsp; PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site

&amp;nbsp; Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

&amp;nbsp; I tend to do this with the &amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link being visible

&amp;nbsp; and the program name wrapped in a &amp;amp;lt;span

&amp;nbsp; class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;.&amp;amp;nbsp; Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none

&amp;nbsp; so that doesn't work

&amp;nbsp; ..hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

&amp;nbsp; &amp;amp;nbsp;

&amp;nbsp; &amp;amp;nbsp;

&amp;nbsp; &amp;amp;lt;a href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;Training &amp;amp;lt;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;for

&amp;nbsp; Program&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/a&amp;amp;gt;