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Thread: FW: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.

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From: Mark Stimson
Date: Thu, Jul 22 2004 8:43AM
Subject: FW: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.
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FW: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.




Gary,


I've also searched for an answer to that question a couple of years ago, and never came up with any decent data or references.  Perhaps there have been some attempts to obtain demographic data of screen reader users since then.  I'm forwarding you a study I received a couple months ago by Microsoft and Forrester Data, a private research firm, called "AT's Wide Impact - a Forrester Data & Microsoft Research Report."  It's probably the closest thing I've seen to good demographic data so far.  If you do come across any other studies I would surely be grateful if you could let me know about them.  Again, I haven't conducted a "thorough" lit search in at least 2 years, so I'm sure there's stuff out there I don't know about.

Best regards,

Mark


P.S. Gary, I'm forwarding you the article in a separate email so that I don't bombard the WebAIM Discussion List with a large attachment.

P.S.S. WebAIM Discussion folks, if any of you would like me to forward you a copy of the AT Report to your personal email address, send me a response and let me know if you prefer MS Word or Adobe PDF.


Mark  Stimson,  Ph.D.

Access Technology Specialist

Sensory Access Foundation

1142 West Evelyn Avenue

Sunnyvale, CA  94086

Ph:  408-245-7330, extension 32

Fax: 408-245-3762

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

www.sensoryaccess.com


SAF Mission: To assist people who are blind or visually impaired to obtain or retain competitive employment by providing the highest quality access technology assessment, computer training, job placement and accommodation services with a goal of achieving 100% job retention.


-----Original Message-----

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:02 AM

To: Mark Stimson

Subject: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.



WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: total number of screen readers

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:41:46 -0600


Hey. I am currently doing research for my company for an article about

web accessibility. I need a ballpark figure of how many people (US or

worldwide) use screen reader software. I tried asking GW Micro for

their sales figures, but they wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the

makers of JAWS, but that figure would not be very accurate, since there

are so many other screen readers out there. Does anybody know where I

could find an estimate of the total number of people who use screen

readers?


Gary


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Flash into

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:59:04 -0600


I would suggest having your index page be something that has 2 links: "flash" and "non-flash", then they click either link they want.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:00:40 -0600







I have an

interesting delima.  I am working on a new web site for our organization

and am including a site map.  My problem is this:  Within major

sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs that

we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.  A program may

include training so there is a link to training for example.  This does not

pose a problem for the pages within the section.  However when those links

are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links that say

"training."

 

Bobby correctly

flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

 

A visitor using a

screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their

browser will be confused by the duplicate named links.  However, to add the

program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be very

annoying as well.

 

Any suggestions from

this group?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

Moore


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:14:42 -0600







I tend to do this with the "training" link being visible

and the program name wrapped in a <span

class="hidden"></span>.  Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none so

that doesn't work

.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

 

 

<a

href="">Training <span class="hidden">for

Program</span></a>

 

Sandra

Clark




From: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PMTo: WebAIM

Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG

13.1


I have an

interesting delima.  I am working on a new web site for our organization

and am including a site map.  My problem is this:  Within major

sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs that

we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.  A program may

include training so there is a link to training for example.  This does not

pose a problem for the pages within the section.  However when those links

are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links that say

"training."

 

Bobby correctly

flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

 

A visitor using a

screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their

browser will be confused by the duplicate named links.  However, to add the

program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be very

annoying as well.

 

Any suggestions from

this group?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike

Moore


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:31:58 -0600


check out the new article on the Webaim website:

An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML Content


-----Original Message-----

From: "sllists" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31 -0400

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1


I tend to do this with the "training" link being visible and the program

name wrapped in a <span class="hidden"></span>.  Unfortunately Jaws honors

display:none so that doesn't work

..hidden{

width:1px;

position:absolute;

left:0;

top:-100px;

height:1px;

overflow:hidden;

}

 

 

<a href="">Training <span class="hidden">for Program</span></a>

 

Sandra Clark


  _____ 


From: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PM

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1



I have an interesting delima.  I am working on a new web site for our

organization and am including a site map.  My problem is this:  Within major

sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs

that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.  A program

may include training so there is a link to training for example.  This does

not pose a problem for the pages within the section.  However when those

links are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links that

say "training."

 

Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

 

A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link

list feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate named links..

However, to add the program name to all of the links relating to that

program would likely be very annoying as well.

 

Any suggestions from this group?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike Moore



Shane Anderson

Programmer Analyst

Web Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM.org)


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:57 -0600


I have read the article that you mentioned but I am still concerned about

the annoyance factor of adding the program name to the links - each section

would need to have seven or eight links with the hidden program name.  The

screen reader would read "program training" "program schedule" "program

participants" etc.  Then again maybe I am just being overly cautious.


Mike


-----Original Message-----

From: Shane [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:32 PM

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1



check out the new article on the Webaim website:

An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML Content


-----Original Message-----

From: "sllists" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31 -0400

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1


I tend to do this with the "training" link being visible and the program

name wrapped in a <span class="hidden"></span>.  Unfortunately Jaws honors

display:none so that doesn't work .hidden{ width:1px; position:absolute;

left:0; top:-100px; height:1px; overflow:hidden; }

 

 

<a href="">Training <span class="hidden">for Program</span></a>

 

Sandra Clark


  _____ 


From: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PM

To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1



I have an interesting delima.  I am working on a new web site for our

organization and am including a site map.  My problem is this:  Within major

sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs

that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.  A program

may include training so there is a link to training for example.  This does

not pose a problem for the pages within the section.  However when those

links are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links that

say "training."

 

Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

 

A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link

list feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate named links.

However, to add the program name to all of the links relating to that

program would likely be very annoying as well.

 

Any suggestions from this group?

 

Thanks,

 

Mike Moore



Shane Anderson

Programmer Analyst

Web Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM.org)


----

To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: total number of screen readers

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:40:44 -0600


Well, why not check with your local society for the blind? In Canada, its

the CNIB (Canadian National Institute for the Blind) and every country is

likely to have something similar. They may not have global figures but they

would probably have national stats. They would know the total number of

visually impaired as well as the number who are currently online. National

statistics bodies will probably also have that information, although it

would probably be much more difficult to track down.


> From: "garymm" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

> Reply-To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:41:07 -0700

> To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

> Subject: [WebAIM] total number of screen readers

>

>

> Hey. I am currently doing research for my company for an article about

> web accessibility. I need a ballpark figure of how many people (US or

> worldwide) use screen reader software. I tried asking GW Micro for

> their sales figures, but they wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the

> makers of JAWS, but that figure would not be very accurate, since there

> are so many other screen readers out there. Does anybody know where I

> could find an estimate of the total number of people who use screen

> readers?

>

> Gary

>

> ----

> To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

>

>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Skip links (in-page links) and the keyboard

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:56:17 -0600


I just updated a study of the problems and possibilities of skip links at

http://jimthatcher.com/skipnav.htm. The important news is at the very bottom

of that page. There is a pretty simple technique to be sure that your

in-page links work from the keyboard. Just do it like this:


<span style="width: 100%;"><a name="main" id="main"></a></span>


This technique is less of a hack than placing the anchor in a table - a

technique used at http://WebAIM.org. The two techniques have a common

aspect. Both place the anchor in some construct with width. That seems to be

the thing that undoes/fixes the IE6 bug.



Jim

Accessibility, What Not to do: http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.

Web Accessibility Tutorial: http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:34:26 -0600









Don't

take this personally but I hate excessive markup for the purpose of applying

style such as a series of nested divs whose role is only to apply different

backgrounds to the same content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique

recently discussed at AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/)

and this code below smacks of the same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and

difficult for others who work with you or after you to maintain. Why

not simply use the Title attribute to add more information?

 

Jules

-----------------------------------------------

Julian Rickards A/Digitial Publications Distribution

Coordinator Publication Services

Section, Ministry of Northern

Development and Mines, Vox:

705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960


  -----Original Message-----From: sllists

  [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:13

  PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site

  Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

  I tend to do this with the "training" link being visible

  and the program name wrapped in a <span

  class="hidden"></span>.  Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none

  so that doesn't work

  ..hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

   

   

  <a href="">Training <span class="hidden">for

  Program</span></a>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:49:39 -0600







Not taken personally :)

 

My experience with the title attribute is that a) I

don't feel that the use of titles meet the WCAG guideline 13.1  of "link

text must be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context".  b)

not every screen reader is configured to read titles out of the box (or many of

them can be reconfigured to either read or

not read titles) so I can't be sure that it would even be read. 


 

I don't think the maintenance of it is that difficult,

mainly because most of what I would use it for is dynamically programmed

anyways. Its a technique, I've found effective, but if someone comes

up with a better way that will meet standards and work, then I'd love to hear

it.

 

Sandy Clark



From: julian.rickards

[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004

9:33 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]

Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1


Don't

take this personally but I hate excessive markup for the purpose of applying

style such as a series of nested divs whose role is only to apply different

backgrounds to the same content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique

recently discussed at AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/)

and this code below smacks of the same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and

difficult for others who work with you or after you to maintain. Why

not simply use the Title attribute to add more information?

 

Jules

-----------------------------------------------

Julian Rickards A/Digitial Publications Distribution

Coordinator Publication Services

Section, Ministry of Northern

Development and Mines, Vox:

705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960


  -----Original Message-----From: sllists

  [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:13

  PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site

  Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

  I tend to do this with the "training" link being visible

  and the program name wrapped in a <span

  class="hidden"></span>.  Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none

  so that doesn't work

  ..hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

   

   

  <a href="">Training <span class="hidden">for

  Program</span></a>



From: liza.zamboglou
Date: Thu, Jul 22 2004 8:52AM
Subject: Re: FW: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.
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FW: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.


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<span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Hi Mark, could you possibly send me a MS
Word version of that article?

<span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Many Thanks

<span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'>Liza

<span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>

<span
lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----
From: mstimson
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: 22 July 2004 15:39
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Cc: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] FW: WebAIM
Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">*******************************************************************
This email has been received from an external party and
has been swept for the presence of computer viruses.
*******************************************************************






<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Gary,

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I've also searched for an answer to that question a
couple of years ago, and never came up with any decent data or
references. Perhaps there have been some attempts to obtain demographic
data of screen reader users since then. I'm forwarding you a study I
received a couple months ago by Microsoft and Forrester Data, a private
research firm, called &amp;quot;AT's Wide Impact - a Forrester Data &amp;amp; Microsoft
Research Report.&amp;quot; It's probably the closest thing I've seen to good
demographic data so far. If you do come across any other studies I would
surely be grateful if you could let me know about them.. Again, I haven't
conducted a &amp;quot;thorough&amp;quot; lit search in at least 2 years, so I'm sure
there's stuff out there I don't know about.

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Best regards,
Mark

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>P.S. Gary, I'm forwarding you the article in a
separate email so that I don't bombard the WebAIM Discussion List with a large
attachment.

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>P.S.S. WebAIM Discussion folks, if any of you would
like me to forward you a copy of the AT Report to your personal email address,
send me a response and let me know if you prefer MS Word or Adobe PDF.

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mark Stimson, Ph.D.
Access Technology Specialist

Sensory Access Foundation

1142 West Evelyn Avenue

Sunnyvale, CA 94086

Ph: 408-245-7330, extension
32
Fax: 408-245-3762
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

www.sensoryaccess.com


<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>SAF Mission: To assist people who are blind or
visually impaired to obtain or retain competitive employment by providing the
highest quality access technology assessment, computer training, job placement
and accommodation services with a goal of achieving 100% job retention.

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:02
AM
To: Mark Stimson
Subject: WebAIM Discussion List
Digest 22.07.2004.

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: total number of screen
readers
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:41:46
-0600

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Hey. I am currently doing research for my company for
an article about
web accessibility. I need a
ballpark figure of how many people (US or
worldwide) use screen reader
software. I tried asking GW Micro for
their sales figures, but they
wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the
makers of JAWS, but that figure
would not be very accurate, since there
are so many other screen readers
out there. Does anybody know where I
could find an estimate of the total
number of people who use screen
readers?

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Gary

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: Flash into

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:59:04
-0600

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I would suggest having your index page be something
that has 2 links: &amp;quot;flash&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;non-flash&amp;quot;, then they click
either link they want.

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG
13.1
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:00:40
-0600

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
36.0pt'>





<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I have an
interesting delima.&amp;amp;nbsp; I am
working on a new web site for our organization
and am including a site
map.&amp;amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;amp;nbsp; Within major
sections of the site which provide
resources relating to different programs that
we sponsor I have subnavigation
menus that are very similar.&amp;amp;nbsp; A program may
include training so there is a link
to training for example.&amp;amp;nbsp; This does not
pose a problem for the pages within
the section.&amp;amp;nbsp; However when those links
are listed within the site map
there is an issue - several links that say
&amp;quot;training.&amp;quot;

&amp;amp;nbsp;
Bobby correctly
flagged this problem as a violation
of WCAG 13.1.
&amp;amp;nbsp;
A visitor using a
screen reader who visits the site
map then uses the link list feature of their
browser will be confused by the
duplicate named links.&amp;amp;nbsp; However, to add the
program name to all of the links
relating to that program would likely be very
annoying as well.
&amp;amp;nbsp;
Any suggestions from
this group?
&amp;amp;nbsp;
Thanks,
&amp;amp;nbsp;
Mike
Moore

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:14:42
-0600

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
36.0pt'>





<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I tend to do this with the &amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link
being visible
and the program name wrapped in a
&amp;amp;lt;span
class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;.&amp;amp;nbsp;
Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none so
that doesn't work
.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

&amp;amp;nbsp;
&amp;amp;nbsp;
&amp;amp;lt;a
href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;Training
&amp;amp;lt;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;for
Program&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/a&amp;amp;gt;

&amp;amp;nbsp;
Sandra
Clark

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
36.0pt'>

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00
PMTo: WebAIM
Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM]
Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG
13.1

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I have an
interesting delima.&amp;amp;nbsp; I am
working on a new web site for our organization
and am including a site
map.&amp;amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;amp;nbsp; Within major
sections of the site which provide
resources relating to different programs that
we sponsor I have subnavigation
menus that are very similar.&amp;amp;nbsp; A program may
include training so there is a link
to training for example.&amp;amp;nbsp; This does not
pose a problem for the pages within
the section.&amp;amp;nbsp; However when those links
are listed within the site map
there is an issue - several links that say
&amp;quot;training.&amp;quot;

&amp;amp;nbsp;
Bobby correctly
flagged this problem as a violation
of WCAG 13.1.
&amp;amp;nbsp;
A visitor using a
screen reader who visits the site
map then uses the link list feature of their
browser will be confused by the
duplicate named links.&amp;amp;nbsp; However, to add the
program name to all of the links
relating to that program would likely be very
annoying as well.
&amp;amp;nbsp;
Any suggestions from
this group?
&amp;amp;nbsp;
Thanks,
&amp;amp;nbsp;
Mike
Moore

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:31:58
-0600

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>check out the new article on the Webaim website:

An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML
Content

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----
From: &amp;quot;sllists&amp;quot;
<; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >;
To: &amp;quot;WebAIM Discussion
List&amp;quot; <; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >;
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31
-0400
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map,
Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I tend to do this with the &amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link
being visible and the program
name wrapped in a <;span
class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;>;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors

display:none so that doesn't work

..hidden{
width:1px;
position:absolute;
left:0;
top:-100px;
height:1px;
overflow:hidden;
}


<;a href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;>;Training
<;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;>;for Program<;/span>;<;/a>;


Sandra Clark

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> _____

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00
PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby,
and WCAG 13.1

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I have an interesting delima. I am working on a
new web site for our
organization and am including a
site map. My problem is this: Within major
sections of the site which provide
resources relating to different programs
that we sponsor I have
subnavigation menus that are very similar. A program
may include training so there is a
link to training for example. This does
not pose a problem for the pages
within the section. However when those
links are listed within the site
map there is an issue - several links that
say &amp;quot;training.&amp;quot;


Bobby correctly flagged this
problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

A visitor using a screen reader who
visits the site map then uses the link
list feature of their browser will
be confused by the duplicate named links..
However, to add the program name to
all of the links relating to that
program would likely be very
annoying as well.

Any suggestions from this group?


Thanks,

Mike Moore

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Shane Anderson
Programmer Analyst
Web Accessibility in Mind
(WebAIM.org)

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:57
-0600

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I have read the article that you mentioned but I am
still concerned about
the annoyance factor of adding the
program name to the links - each section
would need to have seven or eight links
with the hidden program name. The
screen reader would read
&amp;quot;program training&amp;quot; &amp;quot;program schedule&amp;quot; &amp;quot;program

participants&amp;quot; etc. Then
again maybe I am just being overly cautious.

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mike

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----
From: Shane [<a
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ">mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:32
PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map,
Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>check out the new article on the Webaim website:

An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML
Content

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----
From: &amp;quot;sllists&amp;quot;
<; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >;
To: &amp;quot;WebAIM Discussion
List&amp;quot; <; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >;
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31
-0400
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map,
Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I tend to do this with the &amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link
being visible and the program
name wrapped in a <;span
class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;>;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors

display:none so that doesn't work
..hidden{ width:1px; position:absolute;
left:0; top:-100px; height:1px;
overflow:hidden; }


<;a href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;>;Training
<;span class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;>;for Program<;/span>;<;/a>;


Sandra Clark

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> _____

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]

Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00
PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List

Subject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby,
and WCAG 13.1

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I have an interesting delima. I am working on a
new web site for our
organization and am including a
site map. My problem is this: Within major
sections of the site which provide
resources relating to different programs
that we sponsor I have
subnavigation menus that are very similar. A program
may include training so there is a
link to training for example. This does
not pose a problem for the pages
within the section. However when those
links are listed within the site
map there is an issue - several links that
say &amp;quot;training.&amp;quot;


Bobby correctly flagged this
problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.

A visitor using a screen reader who
visits the site map then uses the link
list feature of their browser will
be confused by the duplicate named links.
However, to add the program name to
all of the links relating to that
program would likely be very
annoying as well.

Any suggestions from this group?


Thanks,

Mike Moore

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Shane Anderson
Programmer Analyst
Web Accessibility in Mind
(WebAIM.org)

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>----
To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit <a
href="http://www.webaim.org/discussion/">http://www.webaim.org/discussion/


<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: total number of screen
readers
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:40:44
-0600

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Well, why not check with your local society for the
blind? In Canada, its
the CNIB (Canadian National
Institute for the Blind) and every country is
likely to have something similar.
They may not have global figures but they
would probably have national stats.
They would know the total number of
visually impaired as well as the
number who are currently online. National
statistics bodies will probably
also have that information, although it
would probably be much more
difficult to track down.

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>>; From: &amp;quot;garymm&amp;quot; <; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >;

>; Reply-To: &amp;quot;WebAIM
Discussion List&amp;quot; <; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >;
>; Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004
13:41:07 -0700
>; To: &amp;quot;WebAIM Discussion
List&amp;quot; <; = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >;
>; Subject: [WebAIM] total number
of screen readers
>;
>;
>; Hey. I am currently doing
research for my company for an article about
>; web accessibility. I need a
ballpark figure of how many people (US or
>; worldwide) use screen reader
software. I tried asking GW Micro for
>; their sales figures, but they
wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the
>; makers of JAWS, but that
figure would not be very accurate, since there
>; are so many other screen
readers out there. Does anybody know where I
>; could find an estimate of the
total number of people who use screen
>; readers?
>;
>; Gary
>;
>; ----
>; To subscribe or unsubscribe,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

>;
>;

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Skip links (in-page links)
and the keyboard
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:56:17
-0600

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>I just updated a study of the problems and
possibilities of skip links at
<a
href="http://jimthatcher.com/skipnav.htm">http://jimthatcher.com/skipnav..htm.
The important news is at the very bottom
of that page. There is a pretty
simple technique to be sure that your
in-page links work from the
keyboard. Just do it like this:

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><;span style=&amp;quot;width: 100%;&amp;quot;>;<;a
name=&amp;quot;main&amp;quot; id=&amp;quot;main&amp;quot;>;<;/a>;<;/span>;


<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>This technique is less of a hack than placing the
anchor in a table - a
technique used at <a
href="http://WebAIM.org">http://WebAIM.org. The two techniques have a
common
aspect. Both place the anchor in
some construct with width. That seems to be
the thing that undoes/fixes the IE6
bug.

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Jim
Accessibility, What Not to do: <a
href="http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm">http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot..htm.

Web Accessibility Tutorial: <a
href="http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm">http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.


<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:34:26
-0600

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
36.0pt'>







<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Don't
take this personally but I hate
excessive markup for the purpose of applying
style such as a series of nested
divs whose role is only to apply different
backgrounds to the same content.
For example, the Onion Skinning technique
recently discussed at
AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/)

and this code below smacks of the
same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and
difficult for others who work with
you&amp;amp;nbsp;or after you to maintain.&amp;amp;nbsp;Why
not simply use the Title attribute
to add more information?
&amp;amp;nbsp;
Jules
-----------------------------------------------

Julian Rickards A/Digitial
Publications Distribution
Coordinator Publication Services
Section, Ministry of Northern
Development and Mines, Vox:
705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> -----Original Message-----From: sllists
[<a
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ">mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday,
July 21, 2004 6:13
PMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site
Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

I tend to do this with the
&amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link being visible
and the program name wrapped
in a &amp;amp;lt;span

class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;.&amp;amp;nbsp; Unfortunately
Jaws honors display:none
so that doesn't work

.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

&amp;amp;nbsp;
&amp;amp;nbsp;
&amp;amp;lt;a
href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;Training &amp;amp;lt;span
class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;for

Program&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/a&amp;amp;gt;

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

Subject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:49:39
-0600

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:
36.0pt'>





<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Not taken personally :)
&amp;amp;nbsp;
My experience with the title
attribute is that a)&amp;amp;nbsp;I
don't feel that the use of titles
meet the WCAG guideline 13.1 &amp;amp;nbsp;of &amp;quot;link
text must be meaningful enough to
make sense when read out of context&amp;quot;.&amp;amp;nbsp; b)
not every screen reader is
configured to read titles out of the box (or many of
them&amp;amp;nbsp;can be reconfigured
to either read or
not read titles) so I can't be sure
that it would even be read.&amp;amp;nbsp;

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>&amp;amp;nbsp;
I don't think the maintenance of it
is that difficult,
mainly because most of what I would
use it for is dynamically programmed
anyways. Its a technique, I've
found effective, but if someone comes
up with a better way that will meet
standards and work, then I'd love to hear
it.
&amp;amp;nbsp;
Sandy Clark

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From: julian.rickards
[<a
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ">mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004
9:33 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]
Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1


<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Don't
take this personally but I hate
excessive markup for the purpose of applying
style such as a series of nested
divs whose role is only to apply different
backgrounds to the same content.
For example, the Onion Skinning technique
recently discussed at
AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/)

and this code below smacks of the
same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and
difficult for others who work with
you&amp;amp;nbsp;or after you to maintain.&amp;amp;nbsp;Why
not simply use the Title attribute
to add more information?
&amp;amp;nbsp;
Jules
-----------------------------------------------

Julian Rickards A/Digitial
Publications Distribution
Coordinator Publication Services
Section, Ministry of Northern
Development and Mines, Vox:
705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960

<span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> -----Original Message-----From: sllists
[<a
href="mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ">mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday,
July 21, 2004 6:13
PMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site
Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1

I tend to do this with the
&amp;quot;training&amp;quot; link being visible
and the program name wrapped
in a &amp;amp;lt;span

class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;.&amp;amp;nbsp; Unfortunately
Jaws honors display:none
so that doesn't work


..hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}

&amp;amp;nbsp;
&amp;amp;nbsp;
&amp;amp;lt;a
href=&amp;quot;&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;Training &amp;amp;lt;span
class=&amp;quot;hidden&amp;quot;&amp;amp;gt;for

Program&amp;amp;lt;/span&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;/a&amp;amp;gt;

<font size=3
face="Times New Roman">
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From: paul.creedy
Date: Thu, Jul 22 2004 9:46AM
Subject: Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.
← Previous message | Next message →

I don't know about US or worldwide figures, but in the UK the RNIB at www.rnib.org.uk may be able to help you with stats.
&amp;nbsp;
Paul = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: total number of screen readersDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:41:46 -0600Hey. I am currently doing research for my company for an article about web accessibility. I need a ballpark figure of how many people (US or worldwide) use screen reader software. I tried asking GW Micro for their sales figures, but they wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the makers of JAWS, but that figure would not be very accurate, since there are so many other screen readers out there. Does anybody know where I could find an estimate of the total number of people who use screen readers?Gary------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Flash
intoDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:59:04 -0600I would suggest having your index page be something that has 2 links: &quot;flash&quot; and &quot;non-flash&quot;, then they click either link they want.------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:00:40 -0600I have an interesting delima.&amp;nbsp; I am working on a new web site for our organization and am including a site map.&amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;nbsp; Within major sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.&amp;nbsp; A program may include training so there is a link to training for example.&amp;nbsp; This does not pose a problem for the pages within the section.&amp;nbsp; However when those links are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links that say
&quot;training.&quot;&amp;nbsp;Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.&amp;nbsp;A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate named links.&amp;nbsp; However, to add the program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be very annoying as well.&amp;nbsp;Any suggestions from this group?&amp;nbsp;Thanks,&amp;nbsp;Mike Moore------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:14:42 -0600I tend to do this with the &quot;training&quot; link being visible and the program name wrapped in a &amp;lt;span class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;.&amp;nbsp; Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none so that doesn't
work.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;lt;a href=&quot;&quot;&amp;gt;Training &amp;lt;span class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;for Program&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;nbsp;Sandra ClarkFrom: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I have an interesting delima.&amp;nbsp; I am working on a new web site for our organization and am including a site map.&amp;nbsp; My problem is this:&amp;nbsp; Within major sections of the site which provide resources relating to different programs that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar.&amp;nbsp; A program may include training so there is a link to training for example.&amp;nbsp; This does not pose a problem for the pages within the section.&amp;nbsp; However when those links are listed within the site map there is an issue -
several links that say &quot;training.&quot;&amp;nbsp;Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.&amp;nbsp;A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate named links.&amp;nbsp; However, to add the program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be very annoying as well.&amp;nbsp;Any suggestions from this group?&amp;nbsp;Thanks,&amp;nbsp;Mike Moore------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:31:58 -0600check out the new article on the Webaim website:An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML Content-----Original Message-----From: &quot;sllists&quot; To: &quot;WebAIM Discussion List&quot; Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31
-0400Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to do this with the &quot;training&quot; link being visible and the programname wrapped in a . Unfortunately Jaws honorsdisplay:none so that doesn't work..hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}Training for ProgramSandra Clark_____ From: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I have an interesting delima. I am working on a new web site for ourorganization and am including a site map. My problem is this: Within majorsections of the site which provide resources relating to different programsthat we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar. A programmay include training so
there is a link to training for example. This doesnot pose a problem for the pages within the section. However when thoselinks are listed within the site map there is an issue - several links thatsay &quot;training.&quot;Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses the linklist feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate named links..However, to add the program name to all of the links relating to thatprogram would likely be very annoying as well.Any suggestions from this group?Thanks,Mike MooreShane AndersonProgrammer AnalystWeb Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM.org)------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:57 -0600I have read the article that you mentioned
but I am still concerned aboutthe annoyance factor of adding the program name to the links - each sectionwould need to have seven or eight links with the hidden program name. Thescreen reader would read &quot;program training&quot; &quot;program schedule&quot; &quot;programparticipants&quot; etc. Then again maybe I am just being overly cautious.Mike-----Original Message-----From: Shane [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 5:32 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1check out the new article on the Webaim website:An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML Content-----Original Message-----From: &quot;sllists&quot; To: &quot;WebAIM Discussion List&quot; Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31 -0400Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to do this with the &quot;training&quot; link being visible and the programname wrapped in a
. Unfortunately Jaws honorsdisplay:none so that doesn't work .hidden{ width:1px; position:absolute;left:0; top:-100px; height:1px; overflow:hidden; }Training for ProgramSandra Clark_____ From: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I have an interesting delima. I am working on a new web site for ourorganization and am including a site map. My problem is this: Within majorsections of the site which provide resources relating to different programsthat we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very similar. A programmay include training so there is a link to training for example. This doesnot pose a problem for the pages within the section. However when thoselinks are listed within the site map there is an issue -
several links thatsay &quot;training.&quot;Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses the linklist feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate named links.However, to add the program name to all of the links relating to thatprogram would likely be very annoying as well.Any suggestions from this group?Thanks,Mike MooreShane AndersonProgrammer AnalystWeb Accessibility in Mind (WebAIM.org)----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: total number of screen readersDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:40:44 -0600Well, why not check with your local society for the blind? In Canada, itsthe CNIB (Canadian National Institute for the Blind) and every country
islikely to have something similar. They may not have global figures but theywould probably have national stats. They would know the total number ofvisually impaired as well as the number who are currently online. Nationalstatistics bodies will probably also have that information, although itwould probably be much more difficult to track down.&amp;gt; From: &quot;garymm&quot; &amp;gt; Reply-To: &quot;WebAIM Discussion List&quot; &amp;gt; Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:41:07 -0700&amp;gt; To: &quot;WebAIM Discussion List&quot; &amp;gt; Subject: [WebAIM] total number of screen readers&amp;gt; &amp;gt; &amp;gt; Hey. I am currently doing research for my company for an article about&amp;gt; web accessibility. I need a ballpark figure of how many people (US or&amp;gt; worldwide) use screen reader software. I tried asking GW Micro for&amp;gt; their sales figures, but they wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the&amp;gt; makers
of JAWS, but that figure would not be very accurate, since there&amp;gt; are so many other screen readers out there. Does anybody know where I&amp;gt; could find an estimate of the total number of people who use screen&amp;gt; readers?&amp;gt; &amp;gt; Gary&amp;gt; &amp;gt; ----&amp;gt; To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/&;amp;gt; &amp;gt;------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Skip links (in-page links) and the keyboardDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:56:17 -0600I just updated a study of the problems and possibilities of skip links athttp://jimthatcher.com/skipnav.htm. The important news is at the very bottomof that page. There is a pretty simple technique to be sure that yourin-page links work from the keyboard. Just do it like this:This technique is less of a hack than placing
the anchor in a table - atechnique used at http://WebAIM.org. The two techniques have a commonaspect. Both place the anchor in some construct with width. That seems to bethe thing that undoes/fixes the IE6 bug.JimAccessibility, What Not to do: http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.Web Accessibility Tutorial: http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ect: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:34:26 -0600Don't take this personally but I hate excessive markup for the purpose of applying style such as a series of nested divs whose role is only to apply different backgrounds to the same content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique recently discussed at AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/) and this code below smacks of the same
thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and difficult for others who work with you&amp;nbsp;or after you to maintain.&amp;nbsp;Why not simply use the Title attribute to add more information?&amp;nbsp;Jules----------------------------------------------- Julian Rickards A/Digitial Publications Distribution Coordinator Publication Services Section, Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, Vox: 705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960 -----Original Message-----From: sllists [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:13 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to do this with the &quot;training&quot; link being visible and the program name wrapped in a &amp;lt;span class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;.&amp;nbsp; Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none so that doesn't work.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;lt;a
href=&quot;&quot;&amp;gt;Training &amp;lt;span class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;for Program&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;------------------------------------------------------------------------From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:49:39 -0600Not taken personally :) &amp;nbsp;My experience with the title attribute is that a)&amp;nbsp;I don't feel that the use of titles meet the WCAG guideline 13.1 &amp;nbsp;of &quot;link text must be meaningful enough to make sense when read out of context&quot;.&amp;nbsp; b) not every screen reader is configured to read titles out of the box (or many of them&amp;nbsp;can be reconfigured to either read or not read titles) so I can't be sure that it would even be read.&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp;I don't think the maintenance of it is that difficult, mainly because most of what I would use it for is dynamically programmed anyways. Its a technique, I've found effective, but if someone
comes up with a better way that will meet standards and work, then I'd love to hear it.&amp;nbsp;Sandy ClarkFrom: julian.rickards [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 9:33 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Don't take this personally but I hate excessive markup for the purpose of applying style such as a series of nested divs whose role is only to apply different backgrounds to the same content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique recently discussed at AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/) and this code below smacks of the same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and difficult for others who work with you&amp;nbsp;or after you to maintain.&amp;nbsp;Why not simply use the Title attribute to add more information?&amp;nbsp;Jules----------------------------------------------- Julian Rickards A/Digitial
Publications Distribution Coordinator Publication Services Section, Ministry of Northern Development and Mines, Vox: 705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960 -----Original Message-----From: sllists [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:13 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to do this with the &quot;training&quot; link being visible and the program name wrapped in a &amp;lt;span class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;.&amp;nbsp; Unfortunately Jaws honors display:none so that doesn't work.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;&amp;lt;a href=&quot;&quot;&amp;gt;Training &amp;lt;span class=&quot;hidden&quot;&amp;gt;for Program&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;
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From: Henny.Swan@rnib.org.uk
Date: Thu, Jul 22 2004 9:54AM
Subject: Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.
← Previous message | Next message →








<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>Hi,
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
I work in the Web
Accessibility Team at RNIB and I'm afraid we don't have any stats either. It is
a question we do get asked all the time but we don't have the resource to carry
out a piece of research on this scale which is a shame. I'd be really interested
to hear about anything you find out about though.
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
Sorry I can't be
of much help.
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
Regards,
Henny
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
---
Henny SwanWebsite
Accessibility ConsultantT: 020 7391 2044E:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = t our Web access centre for an up to date
guide to planning, building and testing accessible websites <A
href="http://www.rnib.org.uk/webaccesscentre"
target=_blank>http://www.rnib.org.uk/webaccesscentreTo receive
regular updates email us at = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = with "Subscribe" in the
subject line.
<FONT color=#0000ff
size=2>
<FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----From: paul.creedy
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: 22 July 2004
16:46To: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]
WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.
I don't know about US or worldwide figures, but in the UK the RNIB at <A
href="http://www.rnib.org.uk">www.rnib.org.uk may be able to help you with
stats.

Paul = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">WebAIM
Discussion List Digest
22.07.2004.------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: total number of screen readersDate: Wed, 21 Jul
2004 14:41:46 -0600Hey. I am currently doing research for my company
for an article about web accessibility. I need a ballpark figure of how
many people (US or worldwide) use screen reader software. I tried asking
GW Micro for their sales figures, but they wouldn't tell me. i have also
asked the makers of JAWS, but that figure would not be very accurate,
since there are so many other screen readers out there. Does anybody know
where I could find an estimate of the total number of people who use
screen
readers?Gary------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re! : Flash intoDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:59:04
-0600I would suggest having your index page be something that has 2
links: "flash" and "non-flash", then they click either link they
want.------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date: Wed,
21 Jul 2004 16:00:40 -0600I have an
interesting delima. I am working on a new web site for our
organization and am including a site map. My problem is this:
Within major sections of the site which provide resources relating to
different programs that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are
very similar. A program may include training so there is a link to
training for example. This does not pose a problem for the pages
within the section. However when those links are listed within the
site map there is an issue - several links t! hat say
"training." Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a
violation of WCAG 13.1. A visitor using a screen reader who
visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their browser will
be confused by the duplicate named links. However, to add the
program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be
very annoying as well. Any suggestions from this
group? Thanks, Mike
Moore------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:14:42 -0600I tend to do this
with the "training" link being visible and the program name wrapped in a
<;span class="hidden">;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors
display:none so that doesn't
work.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;} <;a
href="">;Training <;span class="hidden">;for
Program<;/span>;<;/a>; Sandra
ClarkFrom: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent:
Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject:
[WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I have an interesting
delima. I am working on a new web site for our organization and am
including a site map. My problem is this: Within major
sections of the site which provide resources relating to different
programs that we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very
similar. A program may include training so there is a link to
training for example. This does not pose a problem for the pages
within the section. However when those links are listed within the
site map there is an i! ssue - several links that say
"training." Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a
violation of WCAG 13.1. A visitor using a screen reader who
visits the site map then uses the link list feature of their browser will
be confused by the duplicate named links. However, to add the
program name to all of the links relating to that program would likely be
very annoying as well. Any suggestions from this
group? Thanks, Mike
Moore------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2004 16:31:58 -0600check out the new article on the Webaim
website:An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML Content-----Original
Message-----From: "sllists" To: "WebAIM Discussion
List" Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 1! 8:12:31
-0400Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to
do this with the "training" link being visible and the programname wrapped
in a . Unfortunately Jaws honorsdisplay:none so
that doesn't
work..hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;}<A
href="">Training for ProgramSandra
Clark_____ From: mmoore [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion
ListSubject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I have an
interesting delima. I am working on a new web site for ourorganization and
am including a site map. My problem is this: Within majorsections of the
site which provide resources relating to different programsthat we sponsor
I have subnavigation menus that are very similar. A programmay include
train! ing so there is a link to training for example. This doesnot pose a
problem for the pages within the section. However when thoselinks are
listed within the site map there is an issue - several links thatsay
"training."Bobby correctly flagged this problem as a violation of WCAG
13.1.A visitor using a screen reader who visits the site map then uses
the linklist feature of their browser will be confused by the duplicate
named links..However, to add the program name to all of the links relating
to thatprogram would likely be very annoying as well.Any
suggestions from this group?Thanks,Mike MooreShane
AndersonProgrammer AnalystWeb Accessibility in Mind
(WebAIM.org)------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date:
Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:24:57 -0600I have read the article that you men!
tioned but I am still concerned aboutthe annoyance factor of adding the
program name to the links - each sectionwould need to have seven or eight
links with the hidden program name. Thescreen reader would read "program
training" "program schedule" "programparticipants" etc. Then again maybe I
am just being overly cautious.Mike-----Original
Message-----From: Shane [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Wednesday,
July 21, 2004 5:32 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM]
Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1check out the new article on the
Webaim website:An Accessible Method of Hiding HTML
Content-----Original Message-----From: "sllists"
To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:12:31
-0400Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to
do this with the "training" link being visible and the programname
wrapped! in a . Unfortunately Jaws
honorsdisplay:none so that doesn't work .hidden{ width:1px;
position:absolute;left:0; top:-100px; height:1px; overflow:hidden;
}Training for
ProgramSandra Clark_____ From: mmoore
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 6:00
PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: [WebAIM] Site Map, Bobby, and
WCAG 13.1I have an interesting delima. I am working on a new web
site for ourorganization and am including a site map. My problem is this:
Within majorsections of the site which provide resources relating to
different programsthat we sponsor I have subnavigation menus that are very
similar. A programmay include training so there is a link to training for
example. This doesnot pose a problem for the pages within the section.
However when thoselinks are listed within the site map there is an i! ssue
- several links thatsay "training."Bobby correctly flagged this
problem as a violation of WCAG 13.1.A visitor using a screen reader
who visits the site map then uses the linklist feature of their browser
will be confused by the duplicate named links.However, to add the program
name to all of the links relating to thatprogram would likely be very
annoying as well.Any suggestions from this
group?Thanks,Mike MooreShane
AndersonProgrammer AnalystWeb Accessibility in Mind
(WebAIM.org)----To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: total number of screen readersDate:
Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:40:44 -0600Well, why not check with your local
society for the blind? In Canada, itsthe CNIB (Canadian National Institute
for the Blind) and ever! y country islikely to have something similar.
They may not have global figures but theywould probably have national
stats. They would know the total number ofvisually impaired as well as the
number who are currently online. Nationalstatistics bodies will probably
also have that information, although itwould probably be much more
difficult to track down.>; From: "garymm" >;
Reply-To: "WebAIM Discussion List" >;
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:41:07 -0700>; To: "WebAIM Discussion List"
>; Subject: [WebAIM] total number of
screen readers>; >; >; Hey. I am currently doing research
for my company for an article about>; web accessibility. I need a
ballpark figure of how many people (US or>; worldwide) use screen reader
software. I tried asking GW Micro for>; their sales figures, but they
wouldn't tell me. i have also asked the&amp;amp;g! t; makers of JAWS, but that
figure would not be very accurate, since there>; are so many other
screen readers out there. Does anybody know where I>; could find an
estimate of the total number of people who use screen>; readers?>;
>; Gary>; >; ---->; To subscribe or unsubscribe, visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/>;;
>;------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Skip links (in-page links) and the
keyboardDate: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 21:56:17 -0600I just updated a
study of the problems and possibilities of skip links
athttp://jimthatcher.com/skipnav.htm. The important news is at the very
bottomof that page. There is a pretty simple technique to be sure that
yourin-page links work from the keyboard. Just do it like
this:<A id=main
name=main>This technique is less of a hack than ! placing
the anchor in a table - atechnique used at http://WebAIM.org. The two
techniques have a commonaspect. Both place the anchor in some construct
with width. That seems to bethe thing that undoes/fixes the IE6
bug.JimAccessibility, What Not to do:
http://jimthatcher.com/whatnot.htm.Web Accessibility Tutorial:
http://jimthatcher.com/webcourse1.htm.------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ect: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG
13.1Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:34:26
-0600Don't take this personally but I
hate excessive markup for the purpose of applying style such as a series
of nested divs whose role is only to apply different backgrounds to the
same content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique recently discussed
at AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/) and this
code below smacks of! the same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and
difficult for others who work with you or after you to
maintain. Why not simply use the Title attribute to add more
information? Jules-----------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards A/Digitial Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publication Services Section, Ministry of Northern Development and
Mines, Vox: 705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960 -----Original
Message-----From: sllists [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday, July
21, 2004 6:13 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site
Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to do this with the "training" link
being visible and the program name wrapped in a <;span
class="hidden">;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors
display:none so that doesn't
work.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;} <;a
href="">;Training <;span class="hidden">;for
Program<;/span>;<;/a>;------------------------------------------------------------------------From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ject: Re: Site Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Date:
Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:49:39 -0600Not taken
personally :) My experience with the title attribute is that
a) I don't feel that the use of titles meet the WCAG guideline 13.1
of "link text must be meaningful enough to make sense when read out
of context". b) not every screen reader is configured to read titles
out of the box (or many of them can be reconfigured to either read or
not read titles) so I can't be sure that it would even be read.
I don't think the maintenance of it is that difficult,
mainly because most of what I would use it for is dynamically programmed
anyways. Its a technique, I've found effective, but i! f someone comes
up with a better way that will meet standards and work, then I'd love to
hear it. Sandy ClarkFrom: julian.rickards
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004
9:33 AMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site Map,
Bobby, and WCAG 13.1Don't take this personally but I hate
excessive markup for the purpose of applying style such as a series of
nested divs whose role is only to apply different backgrounds to the same
content. For example, the Onion Skinning technique recently discussed at
AListApart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/onionskin/) and this
code below smacks of the same thing. It is a maintenance nightmare and
difficult for others who work with you or after you to
maintain. Why not simply use the Title attribute to add more
information? Jules-----------------------------------------------
Julian Rickards A/Di! gitial Publications Distribution Coordinator
Publication Services Section, Ministry of Northern Development and
Mines, Vox: 705-670-5608 / Fax: 705-670-5960 -----Original
Message-----From: sllists [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ]Sent: Wednesday, July
21, 2004 6:13 PMTo: WebAIM Discussion ListSubject: Re: [WebAIM] Site
Map, Bobby, and WCAG 13.1I tend to do this with the "training" link
being visible and the program name wrapped in a <;span
class="hidden">;<;/span>;. Unfortunately Jaws honors
display:none so that doesn't
work.hidden{width:1px;position:absolute;left:0;top:-100px;height:1px;overflow:hidden;} <;a
href="">;Training <;span class="hidden">;for
Program<;/span>;<;/a>;


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From: Patrizia Bertini
Date: Thu, Jul 22 2004 10:07AM
Subject: Re: WebAIM Discussion List Digest 22.07.2004.
← Previous message | No next message

Hi Gary,

Why don't you try asking the Us Access Board? maybe they shall have
collected some datas regarding the US situation.

Otherwise, have you tried on the www.icdri.org site? They provide an
extensive and useful list of main site and projects also dealing with
Assistive tecnologies
(http://www.icdri.org/Assistive%20Technology/
sites_with_information_on_assist.htm), maybe among those names there's
something useful for you.

Hope this helps!

Pat

Il giorno 22/lug/04, alle 17:52, henny.swan ha scritto:

> Hi,
>