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Re: Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.

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From: nick@redkiteda.com
Date: Mar 14, 2023 2:08AM

So it seems there's no obvious way to guarantee a consistent reading order for users as it depends on their view mode and screen reader. I'm going to be working on some PowerPoint files with a client in the next few weeks with the aim of creating guidance for content creators, so will do some additional testing on reading order as part of that.

Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: 13 March 2023 13:03
To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; <EMAIL REMOVED>
Cc: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.

This is really interesting. I am certain the two reading orders were not linked when I did my tests a couple of years ago, but I can see they are linked now. It would actually make more sense if they were not linked, then you could avoid the laying issue you describe.

There is a further twist. The reading order in Normal view is not necessarily the same as the reading order in Reading View or Slideshow. I found that in the Reading View or Slideshow shapes, images, titles and subtitles are always read before any text, regardless of the reading order in Normal view. I just verified this again.

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: 13 March 2023 08:52
To: Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >; <EMAIL REMOVED>
Cc: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.

The two panels are linked - if you move an item in one pane it moves it correspondingly in the other. The Selection pane controls the visual layering of content on a slide. Content at the bottom of this pane appears on the bottom layer of the slide - this is the same layering when you use the commands 'Send to Back', 'Bring Forwards', etc, in the Shape Format > Arrange menu. Anything on a higher layer will overlap it visually and be read by screen readers after. If you develop a slide where laying of content is important, i.e. you want some items to appear on top of other items for a certain visual effect, this link can sometimes cause problems.

In terms of Reader View, one thing I noted is you get a different experience depending on your screen reader. In Normal View, both JAWS and NVDA (and probably others) ignore content that's pulled through from slide masters, but in Reader View JAWS does read slide master content whereas NVDA does not. So not only does this mean that some users will either miss out on potentially important content or hear unimportant content (like repeated footer copyright information), but the reading order may also be affected by the presence of slide master content. For users who are viewing a third-party presentation (i.e. not editing their own) I don't know how common Reader View is compared with Normal View (would be good to hear about any data on this), but it's something to consider when thinking about slide design and the structure of your content.


Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: 11 March 2023 00:02
To: Sherman, Joseph < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Cc: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.

Yes, that's right. I don't know why there are two reading orders, nor why one reads from top to bottom and the other from bottom to top. Or why they are in completely different parts of the menu structure. Sadly, this is nowhere near the most incomprehensible aspect of PowerPoint accessibility.

Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: Sherman, Joseph < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: 10 March 2023 19:18
To: Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Cc: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Subject: RE: [WebAIM] Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.

Hi,

So for an accessible PowerPoint and PDF, one must check both the Reading Order Pane (top to bottom) and the Selection Pane (bottom to top) to make sure they both are correct? It would be nice if there was only one order Pane for both.

Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 9:22 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Cc: Nibin Mathew (SO/OPM33-IN) < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.

PowerPoint has two different reading orders, so you need to specify which one you are talking about. The Selection Pane controls the reading order for the PowerPoint file. There is also a Reading Order Pane, which you access via Review > Check Accessibility. This controls the reading order in PDFs created from the PowerPoint file.

According to some notes I made a year or so ago, the reading order you get in the PDF is not necessarily the order you specified. Shapes, images, titles and subtitles are always read before any text. I have not tested this again recently.

When using JAWS and NVDA to read the PowerPoint slides, they behave exactly the same when I use the Selection Pane to change the reading order. The Reading Order Pane that I mentioned above has no effect when reading the PowerPoint slides.

When reading the slides in PowerPoint's Normal view, decorative images have to be announced by screen readers because you are in editing mode and you may want to change some property of the image. If the image was not announced, how could you find it? Decorative images are not announced in Reading View.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Nibin Mathew (SO/OPM33-IN) via WebAIM-Forum
Sent: 09 March 2023 09:03
To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
Cc: Nibin Mathew (SO/OPM33-IN) < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: [WebAIM] Incorrect reading behaviour by JAWS and NVDA for the same PPT slide.

Hello all,
Thanks much for the useful resources and recommendations as reply to my PPT related query last week.

One of the unexpected behaviours I have observed from the PPT accessibility check and fix, there are differences in reading the slide content order by JAWS and NVDA after making changes on the reading order. How does it happen that both the screen readers are fetching data through the same accessibility API right? Should I change any option or any settings in PPT or Screen reader to fix it?
Also, while reading the slide using JAWS, it is even announcing that the decorative images present little gibberish which are already marked as decorative. which may be an annoying experience.

Do any of you have a similar experience on PPT?
What are the possible ways to fix it?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards

Mathew Nibin

Design Factory (SO/OPM33-IN)
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