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Thread: JAWS Accordion test
Number of posts in this thread: 18 (In chronological order)
From: Al Sparber
Date: Sat, Mar 21 2009 7:00PM
Subject: JAWS Accordion test
No previous message | Next message →
We've produced a little test with our latest accordion widget to see how it
performs in JAWS 10. If anyone would care to look, there is a link to
download or open an MP3 of the JAWS narrative for the test page:
http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
I'd also be curious as to how this page performs in Apple's new assistive
reader or in older assistive devices.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
From: Randi
Date: Sat, Mar 21 2009 7:15PM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi there. I use Apple's VoiceOver on a new macbook. I'm also newly
blind and new to this language. I think I now know what accordian
menus are.
Anyway, I think it worked fine, if I know what I'm supposed to hear. I
heard, "link, Nursery rhyme" and then some of Mary Had a Little Lamb.
Then something like "end of hidden content" and then "link, actronaut"
something or other and then something brief about that. Sorry, I'm
paraphrasing as I haven't quite mastered toggling between windows and
not loosing my place in my typing.
Thats what I heard on a macbook as a newly blind screenreader and mac
user. Hope it helps.
Randi
On 3/21/09, Al Sparber < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> We've produced a little test with our latest accordion widget to see how it
> performs in JAWS 10. If anyone would care to look, there is a link to
> download or open an MP3 of the JAWS narrative for the test page:
>
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
>
> I'd also be curious as to how this page performs in Apple's new assistive
> reader or in older assistive devices.
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
>
>
From: Al Sparber
Date: Sun, Mar 22 2009 12:10PM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Thank you Randi.
The contents of the first hidden panel is:
Mary Had a Little Lamb, its fleece was white as snow
The contents of the second hidden panel is:
Copernicus was an astronomer a long time ago
So VoiceOver worked perfectly.
Your test is quite valuable and much appreciated.
--
Al
>
From: "Randi" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Hi there. I use Apple's VoiceOver on a new macbook. I'm also newly
> blind and new to this language. I think I now know what accordian
> menus are.
>
> Anyway, I think it worked fine, if I know what I'm supposed to hear. I
> heard, "link, Nursery rhyme" and then some of Mary Had a Little Lamb.
> Then something like "end of hidden content" and then "link, actronaut"
> something or other and then something brief about that. Sorry, I'm
> paraphrasing as I haven't quite mastered toggling between windows and
> not loosing my place in my typing.
>
> Thats what I heard on a macbook as a newly blind screenreader and mac
> user. Hope it helps.
>
> Randi
>
> On 3/21/09, Al Sparber < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> We've produced a little test with our latest accordion widget to see how
>> it
>> performs in JAWS 10. If anyone would care to look, there is a link to
>> download or open an MP3 of the JAWS narrative for the test page:
>>
>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
>>
>> I'd also be curious as to how this page performs in Apple's new assistive
>> reader or in older assistive devices.
From: Randi
Date: Sun, Mar 22 2009 6:10PM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Al,
Yep, thats what I heard. Its really fun testing stuff, makes me feel
like I'm being productive hehe. I enjoyed the clip of Jaws too. I'd
wondered what it sounded like.
Randi
On 3/22/09, Al Sparber < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Thank you Randi.
>
> The contents of the first hidden panel is:
> Mary Had a Little Lamb, its fleece was white as snow
>
> The contents of the second hidden panel is:
> Copernicus was an astronomer a long time ago
>
> So VoiceOver worked perfectly.
>
> Your test is quite valuable and much appreciated.
>
> --
> Al
>
>>
> From: "Randi" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>> Hi there. I use Apple's VoiceOver on a new macbook. I'm also newly
>> blind and new to this language. I think I now know what accordian
>> menus are.
>>
>> Anyway, I think it worked fine, if I know what I'm supposed to hear. I
>> heard, "link, Nursery rhyme" and then some of Mary Had a Little Lamb.
>> Then something like "end of hidden content" and then "link, actronaut"
>> something or other and then something brief about that. Sorry, I'm
>> paraphrasing as I haven't quite mastered toggling between windows and
>> not loosing my place in my typing.
>>
>> Thats what I heard on a macbook as a newly blind screenreader and mac
>> user. Hope it helps.
>>
>> Randi
>>
>> On 3/21/09, Al Sparber < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>> We've produced a little test with our latest accordion widget to see how
>>> it
>>> performs in JAWS 10. If anyone would care to look, there is a link to
>>> download or open an MP3 of the JAWS narrative for the test page:
>>>
>>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
>>>
>>> I'd also be curious as to how this page performs in Apple's new assistive
>>> reader or in older assistive devices.
>
>
From: Priti Rohra
Date: Sun, Mar 22 2009 11:25PM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Al,
Yes, the accordion menu functions well with JAWS 10 & Jaws 7.0.
However, JAWS identified "Nursery Rhyme" and "Early Astronomer" as same page
links for the user but no additional information was available to the user
nor was the user pointed to another section on the page when these links
were clicked.
My only concern is that if the content is available for users as if the
menus were expanded then these options should not be identified as links as
it creates doubts in user's mind.
Thanks & Regards,
Priti Rohra
Accessibility Tester
Net Systems Informatics (India) Pvt. Ltd.
Web: www.n-syst.com | www.barrierbreak.com
Blog: www.barrierbreak.com/blog
Please don't print this email unless you really need to. This will preserve
trees on our planet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Sparber" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAim" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 6:27 AM
Subject: [WebAIM] JAWS Accordion test
> We've produced a little test with our latest accordion widget to see how
> it
> performs in JAWS 10. If anyone would care to look, there is a link to
> download or open an MP3 of the JAWS narrative for the test page:
>
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
>
> I'd also be curious as to how this page performs in Apple's new assistive
> reader or in older assistive devices.
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
>
>
From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 12:45AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Priti,
Thanks for the feedback. We thought about the "same page link" but in our
limited testing, users didn't seem to be confused. The panel triggers are
technically named anchor links that point to the associated panel content.
Allowing the triggers to be links also serves to make panel access more
naturally accessible to people using keyboard or alternative pointing
devices.
Setting the href value to empty (href=""), however, retains the link
functionality and seems to cause JAWS to not recite "same page link". Would
that help, in your opinion?
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
From: "Priti Rohra" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Hi Al,
>
> Yes, the accordion menu functions well with JAWS 10 & Jaws 7.0.
> However, JAWS identified "Nursery Rhyme" and "Early Astronomer" as same
> page
> links for the user but no additional information was available to the user
> nor was the user pointed to another section on the page when these links
> were clicked.
>
> My only concern is that if the content is available for users as if the
> menus were expanded then these options should not be identified as links
> as
> it creates doubts in user's mind.
>> We've produced a little test with our latest accordion widget to see how
>> it
>> performs in JAWS 10. If anyone would care to look, there is a link to
>> download or open an MP3 of the JAWS narrative for the test page:
>>
>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
From: Priti Rohra
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 8:10AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Al,
Well I have a totally different idea, why not let it work the same way for
screen reader users as it does for sighted individuals.
JAWS does identify it as "same page link", let users click on the link and
read the information thus displayed rather then making it available as
expanded menu in the first place.
This will avoid the confusion and the content will function uniformly for
all users. Currently it is making the information available to screen reader
users irrespective of the user's decision to click on the link.
I don't agree with the opinion of setting the href value to empty.
Consider a situation, where in accordion menus are used to present drop-down
menus for a website navigation, and all the sub-menus are read out for
screen reader users. How usable will it for screen reader users? They will
have no option to skip pass to the current menu and access the next one...
Regards,
Priti
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Sparber" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] JAWS Accordion test
> Hi Priti,
>
> Thanks for the feedback. We thought about the "same page link" but in our
> limited testing, users didn't seem to be confused. The panel triggers are
> technically named anchor links that point to the associated panel content.
> Allowing the triggers to be links also serves to make panel access more
> naturally accessible to people using keyboard or alternative pointing
> devices.
>
> Setting the href value to empty (href=""), however, retains the link
> functionality and seems to cause JAWS to not recite "same page link".
> Would
> that help, in your opinion?
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Priti Rohra" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>> Hi Al,
>>
>> Yes, the accordion menu functions well with JAWS 10 & Jaws 7.0.
>> However, JAWS identified "Nursery Rhyme" and "Early Astronomer" as same
>> page
>> links for the user but no additional information was available to the
>> user
>> nor was the user pointed to another section on the page when these links
>> were clicked.
>>
>> My only concern is that if the content is available for users as if the
>> menus were expanded then these options should not be identified as links
>> as
>> it creates doubts in user's mind.
>
>>> We've produced a little test with our latest accordion widget to see how
>>> it
>>> performs in JAWS 10. If anyone would care to look, there is a link to
>>> download or open an MP3 of the JAWS narrative for the test page:
>>>
>>> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
>
>
From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 9:40AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
If it were a widget that could only be used as a menu, I'd agree
unequivocally. However, the dominant use for an accordion widget is as a
means to visually compress content. So the objective was to uncompress
things for assistive reader users to a normal page-state. If deployed as a
menu, or as a hybrid with content and link lists, then a designer could
introduce skip and skip-to links in appropriate spots.
I have another question (perhaps Randi can weigh in, too). As a professional
in the field, how do most JAWS users prefer to listen to a page? On the
first pass, for instance, do they simply let JAWS recite what it can
contiguously--or, do they tend to stop JAWS and use their navigation keys to
read one line at a time?
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Priti Rohra" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Hi Al,
>
> Well I have a totally different idea, why not let it work the same way for
> screen reader users as it does for sighted individuals.
> JAWS does identify it as "same page link", let users click on the link and
> read the information thus displayed rather then making it available as
> expanded menu in the first place.
>
> This will avoid the confusion and the content will function uniformly for
> all users. Currently it is making the information available to screen
> reader
> users irrespective of the user's decision to click on the link.
>
> I don't agree with the opinion of setting the href value to empty.
> Consider a situation, where in accordion menus are used to present
> drop-down
> menus for a website navigation, and all the sub-menus are read out for
> screen reader users. How usable will it for screen reader users? They will
> have no option to skip pass to the current menu and access the next one...
From: Steve Green
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 9:50AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
In my experience they read one line at a time, although they may use other
strategies in addition, such as using the links list, heading list or
jumping to headings.
'SayAll' mode, which is the mode where JAWS reads continuously, is not
particularly useful for most tasks because the semantic structure is not
read out in this mode and it is impossible to build a mental model of the
page. It is really only useful for reading large blocks of text, but even
then I have not seen anyone use it.
To a large extent I expect it depends how the user was trained, and maybe
someone who has not received any training may tend to use it more because
JAWS switches to SayAll mode each time a new page loads.
Steve
From: Randi
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 10:25AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
On the accordian menus, I'm a complete novice so bear with me. I heard
the link but did not click because I assume, just by thinking of an
accordian, that once my curser passes over the link, the content
opens, and thats where I read the nursery rhyme. Do I have that
correct? I knew what I was trying to test though, so If I didn't know
it was an ccordian menu and I clicked on the link and nothing
happened, I'd just arrow down farther and then discover the text. This
happens quite often on some pages. If I click a link and nothing
happens, I assume its some fancy programming and arrow down further.
As for skip to content links, I'm having no luck with those. I don't
know if itsa a Voiceover thing so I've actually got a question out to
my Apple guru with regards to these. These links never do anything.
As far as the question about Jaws reading a whole page, In Voiceover I
have that option if I want, but I never use it. I prefer to go find
stuff on my own. As for right now, I just arrow through pages. I
haven't mastered navigation by header yet. On pages I'm familiar with,
this is not a problem. Voicover gives me blips and blurps when it goes
past lines and paragraphs, so I just have those sounds memorized so I
know how far to arrow down. I don't know if that helps, but thats how
I've been doing it. I need to learn header navigation though, as I'm
sure it will speed things up.
Thanks for including me in this one. Most of your discussions go right
over my head so I like ones I understand hehe.
Randi
On 3/23/09, Steve Green < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> In my experience they read one line at a time, although they may use other
> strategies in addition, such as using the links list, heading list or
> jumping to headings.
>
> 'SayAll' mode, which is the mode where JAWS reads continuously, is not
> particularly useful for most tasks because the semantic structure is not
> read out in this mode and it is impossible to build a mental model of the
> page. It is really only useful for reading large blocks of text, but even
> then I have not seen anyone use it.
>
> To a large extent I expect it depends how the user was trained, and maybe
> someone who has not received any training may tend to use it more because
> JAWS switches to SayAll mode each time a new page loads.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
From: Randall Pope
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 10:50AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi All,
For those who are using screen reader, can you give me your insight in the
JAWS Accordion test, while using a refreshing braille display on computers,
and notetakers such as BrailleNote? I have deafblind people who cannot hear
but depend on braille to read the content. Many thanks.
With Warm Regards,
Randall "Randy" Pope
American Association of the Deaf-Blind
Website: http://www.aadb.org
301 495-4402 VP/TTY
301 495-4403 Voice
301 495-4404 Fax
AIM: RandyAADB
Want to keep up with the latest news in the Deaf-Blind Community? Consider
subscribing to the monthly newsletter, "AADB Today" at http://aadb.org. It's
free and AADB membership is not required.
From: Patrick Burke
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 11:10AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Randall,
With Jaws 10 & IE7 (with braille display), I don't notice any effect
from Al's test page at all. That is, Jaws reads the whole content of
the page, including the Nursery Rhyme & Astronomer paragraphs.
Triggering the links associated with the paragraphs makes no change.
(We have done other Javascript tests where you can use links to make
paragraphs appear & disappear. But I don't think that was Al's intent
with this one.)
Patrick
At 09:45 AM 3/23/2009, Randall Pope wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>For those who are using screen reader, can you give me your insight in the
>JAWS Accordion test, while using a refreshing braille display on computers,
>and notetakers such as BrailleNote? I have deafblind people who cannot hear
>but depend on braille to read the content. Many thanks.
>
>With Warm Regards,
>Randall "Randy" Pope
>American Association of the Deaf-Blind
>Website: http://www.aadb.org
>
>301 495-4402 VP/TTY
>301 495-4403 Voice
>301 495-4404 Fax
>AIM: RandyAADB
>
>Want to keep up with the latest news in the Deaf-Blind Community? Consider
>subscribing to the monthly newsletter, "AADB Today" at http://aadb.org. It's
>free and AADB membership is not required.
>
>
From: Al Sparber
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 12:15PM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Thanks. After testing with JAWS for several days, that's what I thought. The
main focus of our experiment was to provide an accordion system that could
be read in any scenario with minimum confusion. That is, in "Say All" mode
and by using navigation keys. A key criteria was that a user could hear the
hidden content, by using navigation keys, whether or not the same page
anchor link was executed. The test, of course, was assuming a content-only
accordion.
From: "Steve Green" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> In my experience they read one line at a time, although they may use other
> strategies in addition, such as using the links list, heading list or
> jumping to headings.
>
> 'SayAll' mode, which is the mode where JAWS reads continuously, is not
> particularly useful for most tasks because the semantic structure is not
> read out in this mode and it is impossible to build a mental model of the
> page. It is really only useful for reading large blocks of text, but even
> then I have not seen anyone use it.
>
> To a large extent I expect it depends how the user was trained, and maybe
> someone who has not received any training may tend to use it more because
> JAWS switches to SayAll mode each time a new page loads.
From: Travis Roth
Date: Mon, Mar 23 2009 12:45PM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Al asks:
"I have another question (perhaps Randi can weigh in, too). As a
professional
in the field, how do most JAWS users prefer to listen to a page? On the
first pass, for instance, do they simply let JAWS recite what it can
contiguously--or, do they tend to stop JAWS and use their navigation keys to
read one line at a time?"
I prefer to use quick navigation keys to look at the various headings of a
page. When I'm lucky there's a heading announcing the start of the content
that I had came to the page for, often as a result of a Google search, etc.
After I find the area sometimes I will read with "say all" and sometimes I
will navigate more slowly usually by line.
This depends on the expeted length of content, and what I'm looking for.
I.e., if I'm looking for aspecific fact, or a link, then I will move more
slowly.
From: Christophe Strobbe
Date: Wed, Mar 25 2009 4:40AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Al,
At 01:57 22/03/2009, Al Sparber wrote:
>We've produced a little test with our latest accordion widget to see how it
>performs in JAWS 10. If anyone would care to look, there is a link to
>download or open an MP3 of the JAWS narrative for the test page:
>
>http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
I'm coming to this discussion rather late but I'd like to know if you also
considered sighted keyboard users when creating this test.
It's impossible to discern keyboard focus on the headings in the accordion.
Maybe you could apply the :hover colour change also to :focus in your CSS?
(I hope I'm stating the obvious when I point out that the colour contrast in
the test summary and the collapsed accordion headings is too low.)
Best regards,
Christophe
--
Christophe Strobbe
K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD
Research Group on Document Architectures
Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442
B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
BELGIUM
tel: +32 16 32 85 51
http://www.docarch.be/
---
Please don't invite me to LinkedIn, Facebook, Quechup or other
"social networks". You may have agreed to their "privacy policy", but
I haven't.
Disclaimer: http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm
From: Al Sparber
Date: Wed, Mar 25 2009 10:50AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
From: "Christophe Strobbe" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Hi Al,
>
> At 01:57 22/03/2009, Al Sparber wrote:
>>We've produced a little test with our latest accordion widget to see how
>>it
>>performs in JAWS 10. If anyone would care to look, there is a link to
>>download or open an MP3 of the JAWS narrative for the test page:
>>
>>http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
>
> I'm coming to this discussion rather late but I'd like to know if you also
> considered sighted keyboard users when creating this test.
> It's impossible to discern keyboard focus on the headings in the
> accordion.
> Maybe you could apply the :hover colour change also to :focus in your CSS?
> (I hope I'm stating the obvious when I point out that the colour contrast
> in
> the test summary and the collapsed accordion headings is too low.)
Hi Christophe,
This rule remained in from initial testing:
.p7APM10 .p7APMtrig a:active, .p7APM10 .p7APMtrig a:focus {
outline: 1px dotted #ccc;
}
Removing it allows the user agent to use its default focus outline, which is
probably what we should have done. The other approach, of course, would be
to append the focus and active states to the hover selector.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
From: Sven Jenzer
Date: Fri, Apr 03 2009 5:55AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi All and Al
My question concerns the "same page link" spellng, which is in fact
irritating.
http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
What can we recommend to developpers asking us?
Have you tested yet the linked Header with empty href="" ?
Ist it then in fact no more spelled by Jaws?
Would the JavaScript-Accordion-Function still work?
thnx a lot for your answers and best regards
Sven Jenzer
Swiss Foundation Access for all
Al Sparber schrieb:
> Hi Priti,
>
> Thanks for the feedback. We thought about the "same page link" but in our
> limited testing, users didn't seem to be confused. The panel triggers are
> technically named anchor links that point to the associated panel content.
> Allowing the triggers to be links also serves to make panel access more
> naturally accessible to people using keyboard or alternative pointing
> devices.
>
> Setting the href value to empty (href=""), however, retains the link
> functionality and seems to cause JAWS to not recite "same page link". Would
> that help, in your opinion?
>
>
From: Al Sparber
Date: Fri, Apr 03 2009 9:40AM
Subject: Re: JAWS Accordion test
← Previous message | No next message
Hi Sven,
It will work with an empty href attribute and still maintain operability for
keyboard users.
http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/href-empty.htm
The primary reason for the anchor is that folks who use the tool be be able
to separate the headings from content panels, in which case an anchor from
the heading to its relevant content would be appropriate. In that scenario,
of course, the script would be tweaked to return the link true.
From: "Sven Jenzer" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Hi All and Al
>
> My question concerns the "same page link" spellng, which is in fact
> irritating.
> http://www.projectseven.com/products/tools/accordion2/accessible/jaws-test/
>
> What can we recommend to developpers asking us?
>
> Have you tested yet the linked Header with empty href="" ?
>
> Ist it then in fact no more spelled by Jaws?
>
> Would the JavaScript-Accordion-Function still work?
>
>
> thnx a lot for your answers and best regards
>
> Sven Jenzer
> Swiss Foundation Access for all
>
>
> Al Sparber schrieb:
>> Hi Priti,
>>
>> Thanks for the feedback. We thought about the "same page link" but in our
>> limited testing, users didn't seem to be confused. The panel triggers are
>> technically named anchor links that point to the associated panel
>> content.
>> Allowing the triggers to be links also serves to make panel access more
>> naturally accessible to people using keyboard or alternative pointing
>> devices.
>>
>> Setting the href value to empty (href=""), however, retains the link
>> functionality and seems to cause JAWS to not recite "same page link".
>> Would
>> that help, in your opinion?