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Thread: RE: Underlined text on button
Number of posts in this thread: 12 (In chronological order)
From: Jukka Korpela
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 12:57AM
Subject: RE: Underlined text on button
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Emma Jane Hogbin wrote:
> If users are "in the know" about access keys will they look
> for them on a site?
Good question. And how would they look for them? The original idea seems to
have been that a browser supporting access keys would automatically indicate
the access keys. For example, a user could give some command to get a list
of access keys, or a browser could show them in some special area in a
toolbar.
It has been proposed that access key 0 (zero) be assigned by authors to
correspond to a link to an explanation of access key assignments. This is
probably the closest we can get to the original idea with current browsers.
> The url posted here seems to suggest that screen
> readers/aural browsers ignore the access key attribute.
> Anyone know for sure?
I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Support to accesskey attributes
is basically a matter of recognizing certain HTML markup and providing some
method for using certain keyboard keys as shortcuts, corresponding to the
access key assignments. When screen readers or aural browsers are used, the
input method is usually a keyboard. So whether access keys are supported
depend on the browser, not on the methods it uses to present the document.
Presentation matters as regards to telling the user what the access key
assignments are.
For example, if a graphic browser that supports accesskey (e.g., IE 6) is
used together with screen reader software, then naturally the access keys
work the same way as in visual mode, i.e., not very well, but occasionally
in a useful way. But the user needs to have the assignments explained in
normal language. Underlining would not help a blind user, unless the screan
reader can actually explain say what letters are underlined. And putting
e.g. "(Alt-W)" after a form field, as often suggested and used, wouldn't
really help much either - if one hears that after getting into the field
somehow, filling it out, and proceeding. Besides, "(Alt-W)" could really
confuse an unexperienced user, especially if Alt-W does not work for him or
actually causes something completely different than focusing on a field.
Thus, the conclusion is that plain English explanations about access key
assignments are needed. ("English" is to be taken as a generic term for
natural language, of course.) This raises some practical questions. Suppose
first that you put the explanations onto a separate page. One would, in
practice, due to the way browsers support accesskey, need to put an explicit
link to a page with accesskey assignment explanations onto each and every
page that has some access key assignments. Naturally that link would then
have accesskey="0". But on IE, Alt-0 would take the user to that link only,
and then Enter is needed to follow the link. And the author would need a
separate explanation page for each page, if there is _anything_
page-specific in the assignments.
Alternatively, the explanations could appear on a page itself. Somewhere at
the bottom probably. The problem is how make access key 0 take the user
there. This might require trickery:
<div class="noprint">
<hr title="Access key assignments">
<div><a id="accesskeys" accesskey="0" href="#accesskeys">Access
keys:</a></div>
<ul class="compact">
<li>0 = get this list
<li>1 = <a href="index.html" accesskey="1">main page of the site</a>
<li>4 = <a href="search.html" accesskey="1">search the site</a>
</ul>
</div>
I'm not sure whether it's worth the trouble. We would use quite some special
methods as a workaround to compensate for deficiencies in browsers. When
browsers _really_ start supporting access keys, we would look a bit foolish,
with lots of pages with extra stuff like the above. But if access keys are
very important on some pages, due to their specific content and use, then
perhaps it _is_ worth the trouble.
--
Jukka Korpela
TIEKE Tietoyhteiskunnan kehitt
From: Emma Jane Hogbin
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 10:00AM
Subject: RE: Underlined text on button
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>It has been proposed that access key 0 (zero) be assigned by authors to
>correspond to a link to an explanation of access key assignments.
I've always used zero for home. :/
The site I've just built for has:
0 for home
1 - 5 for content/sections
6 - 7 reserved for two new content sections I know we're going to be adding
in the next two-four months
8 - 9 for "features" (search input box and "skip to content")
> > The url posted here seems to suggest that screen
> > readers/aural browsers ignore the access key attribute.
> > Anyone know for sure?
>
>I'm afraid I don't understand the question.
Yeah, it didn't make much sense... what I meant to ask was this: does it
read out the access key attribute when it reads the link the way it would
read out the alt tag on an image. i.e. when it gets to:
<a href="bla.html" title="Blah" accesskey="0"> does it say "link Blah
access key assignment 0." My guess is that it does NOT read out the access
key assignment on a link.
>Alternatively, the explanations could appear on a page itself. Somewhere at
>the bottom probably. The problem is how make access key 0 take the user
>there. This might require trickery:
Interesting solution...I think I like it. But how would search engines deal
with it? Would they index it? Would it show up in the excerpt in the search
results page?
emma :)
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 9:49AM
Subject: RE: Access Keys
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I have employed access keys on my site this way:
<.a href="#all" accesskey="z" tabindex="1" title="Skip All Navigation"><.img
src="images/shim.gif" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="Skip All
Navigation - Access Key Z"></a><.a href="#primary" accesskey="x" title="Skip
Primary navigation block"><.img src="images/shim.gif" width="1" height="1"
border="0" alt="Skip Primary navigation block - Access Key X"></a><.a
href="features_e.html" accesskey="y" title="Accessibility Features of this
site"><.img src="images/shim.gif" width="1" height="1" border="0"
alt="Accessibility Features of this site - Access Key Y">
This code block appears at the top of every document. Since access keys
specifically benefit the visually impaired, the first links both provide the
"quick" navigation afforded by the "skip nav" function as well as a link to
a page explaining the accessibility features of the site; because it's
wrapped around an invisible gif it's an actual link (which even no-graphical
browsers can deal with), and the Alt text for the 3 gifs identify that there
are access keys being used on the site.
Jukka mentions assigning the Access Key of (zero) to the "Accessibility
Features" link (instead of my "Y")... Jukka, where is this being proposed?
Is it W3C, or elsewhere? I personally think that it would be a wonderful
idea if the development community could come to an agreement on this, and
perhaps a standardization.
Has anybody else seen anything like this? Jukka, could you point me (us) in
a direction?
Cheers!
JF
>
From: Jon Gunderson
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 10:08AM
Subject: RE: Access Keys
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The W3C would never recommend any particular key binding for a
function. They may point to a convention that is used by another group,
but only as an informative note to the reader.
Jon
At 11:49 AM 3/27/2002 -0500, John Foliot - bytown internet wrote:
>I have employed access keys on my site this way:
>
><.a href="#all" accesskey="z" tabindex="1" title="Skip All Navigation"><.img
>src="images/shim.gif" width="1" height="1" border="0" alt="Skip All
>Navigation - Access Key Z"></a><.a href="#primary" accesskey="x" title="Skip
>Primary navigation block"><.img src="images/shim.gif" width="1" height="1"
>border="0" alt="Skip Primary navigation block - Access Key X"></a><.a
>href="features_e.html" accesskey="y" title="Accessibility Features of this
>site"><.img src="images/shim.gif" width="1" height="1" border="0"
>alt="Accessibility Features of this site - Access Key Y">
>
>This code block appears at the top of every document. Since access keys
>specifically benefit the visually impaired, the first links both provide the
>"quick" navigation afforded by the "skip nav" function as well as a link to
>a page explaining the accessibility features of the site; because it's
>wrapped around an invisible gif it's an actual link (which even no-graphical
>browsers can deal with), and the Alt text for the 3 gifs identify that there
>are access keys being used on the site.
>
>Jukka mentions assigning the Access Key of (zero) to the "Accessibility
>Features" link (instead of my "Y")... Jukka, where is this being proposed?
>Is it W3C, or elsewhere? I personally think that it would be a wonderful
>idea if the development community could come to an agreement on this, and
>perhaps a standardization.
>
>Has anybody else seen anything like this? Jukka, could you point me (us) in
>a direction?
>
>Cheers!
>
>JF
>
>
> >
From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 10:49AM
Subject: RE: Access Keys
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OK, but why?
Would it not make sense to at least add it to the WAI Guidelines? While it
may not be *Mandated* it would at least be documented and recommended under
an authorative domain; a subtle encouragement to standardize. The W3C
provides and example of the accesskey "in action" at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#link-accesskey Even if the code
example they used indicated:<.a href="features.html" accesskey="0"
title="Accessibility Features of this site"> it would be a start...
Microsoft has already "bound" a number of keys to functions, and while it is
proprietory they led the way and most savvy PC folk know the "Control C
Control V" combo (Copy, Paste). If a large enough user body "claimed" a
convention, it would become a defacto convention, no? But somebody needs to
get the ball rolling. If not the W3C, who?
JF
>
From: Emma Jane Hogbin
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 12:24PM
Subject: RE: Access Keys
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I've just added the following to the top of the first page of our new site....
<a href="#content" title="Welcome to Career Matters. Many introduction
pages have flash introductions. You may find the search engine easier to
use. The search engine input box is Access Key 9. To skip to content on all
pages use Access Key 8. This page contains a flash movie for content. Use
the navigation or search engine to find a plain text page."
accesskey="8"><img src="/images/transparentgif.gif" alt="Skip to content"
border="0"></a>
Subsequent pages have no title just the alt that says "skip to content."
What do you think?
Will the title on the link even be read aloud by a screen reader/aural browser?
emma
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 12:39PM
Subject: RE: Access Keys
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Try: <img src="/images/transparentgif.gif" alt="Skip to content - Access key
8" border="0">
As for reading the TITLE attribute, I beleive that JAWS 3.x actually
defaults to the Title attribute, for example:
Go to the <.a href="link.html" Title="Go to the next page">Next page</a>
will actually be read aloud as "Go to {the go to the next page}"
this has caused me some grief in the past :(
JF
(I note you do not specify Height and Width attributes of your transparent
gif - is this deliberate?)
>
From: Darold Lindquist
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 12:57PM
Subject: RE: Access Keys
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FYI: JAWS 4.02 handles alt and title attributes quite well. If any one
would like me to verify this on their page, send me a URL.
Darold
At 02:39 PM 3/27/02, you wrote:
>Try: <img src="/images/transparentgif.gif" alt="Skip to content - Access key
>8" border="0">
>
>As for reading the TITLE attribute, I beleive that JAWS 3.x actually
>defaults to the Title attribute, for example:
>
> Go to the <.a href="link.html" Title="Go to the next page">Next
> page</a>
>will actually be read aloud as "Go to {the go to the next page}"
>
>this has caused me some grief in the past :(
>
>JF
>(I note you do not specify Height and Width attributes of your transparent
>gif - is this deliberate?)
>
>
>
> >
From: Mark Rew
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 1:12PM
Subject: Re: Access Keys
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emma,
Is there a url where I can test this feature with my screen reader, Jaws 4.0.
thanks
Mark Rew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Emma Jane Hogbin" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 2:24 PM
Subject: RE: Access Keys
> I've just added the following to the top of the first page of our new
site....
>
> <a href="#content" title="Welcome to Career Matters. Many introduction
> pages have flash introductions. You may find the search engine easier to
> use. The search engine input box is Access Key 9. To skip to content on all
> pages use Access Key 8. This page contains a flash movie for content. Use
> the navigation or search engine to find a plain text page."
> accesskey="8"><img src="/images/transparentgif.gif" alt="Skip to content"
> border="0"></a>
>
> Subsequent pages have no title just the alt that says "skip to content."
>
> What do you think?
>
> Will the title on the link even be read aloud by a screen reader/aural
browser?
>
> emma
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
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From: Emma Jane Hogbin
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 1:43PM
Subject: Re: Access Keys
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Don't be too hard on it. .... we're working on it. :/
http://careermatters.tvo.org
emma
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From: Emma Jane Hogbin
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 1:46PM
Subject: RE: Access Keys
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>Try: <img src="/images/transparentgif.gif" alt="Skip to content - Access key
>8" border="0">
I'd prefer not to put it in the ALT attribute as this pop-ups up visually
and I don't want to confuse people who know nothing about adaptive
technology (read: managers...). I try to match the ALT with the actual
words in the buttons and use the title attribute for the extra information.
Thoughts?
>As for reading the TITLE attribute, I beleive that JAWS 3.x actually
>defaults to the Title attribute, for example:
And if there's not a title attribute, what does it read?
>(I note you do not specify Height and Width attributes of your transparent
>gif - is this deliberate?)
Nah. Just lazy. It's a 1x1 transparent gif.
emma
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From: John Foliot - bytown internet
Date: Wed, Mar 27 2002 8:32PM
Subject: RE: Access Keys
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> I'd prefer not to put it in the ALT attribute as this pop-ups up visually
> and I don't want to confuse people who know nothing about adaptive
> technology (read: managers...)
<OPINION>
Educate the managers WHY it is there, and why it should be there. Providing
access keys are an enhancement which benefits numerous users, not just the
visually impaired. Sell the feature, be proud of the fact that it is there,
and make the managers feel proud about it too. Convince them that it's a
cause for "bragging rights", it sets you above the competiton. I've not
seen your site so it is difficult to say if and where it would be
appropriate, but why not provide a section "What's an Access Key?" within
your site, explaing what it is, how it works, and why you include it on your
site. Advocacy about the benefits of accessible design is a difficult
proposition, but a good "spin-meister" can surely find a way of using it to
shed your company/organization in a positive light. A little yellow
mouseover box in IE or Netscape should not make a manager cringe.
</OPINION>
While the TITLE attribute was approved in December 1999 with the adoption of
HTML 4.01 (actually early with 4.0, but lets not quibble) it is not yet
universal and is not supported by many exisitng "user agents", whereas the
ALT attribute is. And, since you are doing like I and using a 1X1 pixel gif
to insert within your anchor tags, I will go one step further and presume
that it would be located fairly near the x,y axis of 0,0. While the chance
of somebody actually mousing over that specific area long enough for the
"tool tip" to show up exists, I would suggest that it is statistically going
to be rare. So where exactly is the harm?
> And if there's not a title attribute, what does it read?
The text within the opening and closing anchor tags
> Nah. Just lazy. It's a 1x1 transparent gif.
tsk, tsk, tsk <grin>
JF
>