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From: Lori K. Brown
Date: Thu, Aug 01 2002 11:50AM
Subject: column headings, labels, form elements
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Dear WebAIM:

I work on a web-based collaboration software product called SiteScape
Forum. We are attempting to make the HTML that our product renders
standards compliant and accessible in the coming version.

In a number of instances we list entries in a table, and the first few
columns of data include a checkbox that users can click to select the
item for deletion. Currently, the column that contains that checkbox
does not have any heading text above it, and there's really no logical
(at least to us) space available in the table to render a label for each
instance of the checkbox. Repetitive labeling ('this is the deletion
checkbox') seems pretty pointless, and a waste of screen real estate.

My questions:

1) Does every column of a data table HAVE to have some kind of text
heading? I understand that column headings should be associated with the
data they label, but do I in fact need to supply headings in the first
place? (I think it's common sense, but we cannot come to agreement on
this in my dept.)

2) Can I solve this problem by using a title attribute on the checkbox
to label it for text reader users, since the purpose of the check box is
readily apparent to sighted users?

To make it easier to tell what the heck I'm talking about, I have
uploaded a screen capture of the table I am talking about at:
http://www.sitescape.com/other/tableslabels.gif

The columns that do have headings above them are associated with their
appropriate data with the tag scope="blah", as appropriate.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Lori K. Brown
User Interface Engineer
SiteScape, Inc.



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From: Penguin-Love.Com
Date: Thu, Aug 01 2002 11:57AM
Subject: Re: column headings, labels, form elements
← Previous message | Next message →

I'm sorry you have the wrong e-mail address please do not reply to this
e-mail.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lori K. Brown" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To: < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:43 AM
Subject: column headings, labels, form elements


> Dear WebAIM:
>
> I work on a web-based collaboration software product called SiteScape
> Forum. We are attempting to make the HTML that our product renders
> standards compliant and accessible in the coming version.
>
> In a number of instances we list entries in a table, and the first few
> columns of data include a checkbox that users can click to select the
> item for deletion. Currently, the column that contains that checkbox
> does not have any heading text above it, and there's really no logical
> (at least to us) space available in the table to render a label for each
> instance of the checkbox. Repetitive labeling ('this is the deletion
> checkbox') seems pretty pointless, and a waste of screen real estate.
>
> My questions:
>
> 1) Does every column of a data table HAVE to have some kind of text
> heading? I understand that column headings should be associated with the
> data they label, but do I in fact need to supply headings in the first
> place? (I think it's common sense, but we cannot come to agreement on
> this in my dept.)
>
> 2) Can I solve this problem by using a title attribute on the checkbox
> to label it for text reader users, since the purpose of the check box is
> readily apparent to sighted users?
>
> To make it easier to tell what the heck I'm talking about, I have
> uploaded a screen capture of the table I am talking about at:
> http://www.sitescape.com/other/tableslabels.gif
>
> The columns that do have headings above them are associated with their
> appropriate data with the tag scope="blah", as appropriate.
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>
> Lori K. Brown
> User Interface Engineer
> SiteScape, Inc.
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>


----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: philip steven lanier
Date: Thu, Aug 01 2002 2:01PM
Subject: Re: column headings, labels, form elements
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"...since the purpose of the check box is readily apparent to sighted
users."

I looked at the screen capture you sent us, and it wasn't readily apparent
to me (I am sighted) that the checkbox was for deleting the item.
However, I am not a regular user of this site/page, so that does make a
difference. Regardless, however, it seems to me that this is more of a
usability issue. Users reading the page with a screen reader should have
no trouble identifying the contents of the "checkbox column", since all
the cells in that column are checkoxes and there is only one column with
checkboxes. Of course there should be a way to identify what row the cell
is in, but this does not concern the column heading.

In any case, the checkboxes are not likely to be any more ambiguous for
non-sighted users than for sighted users. From the accessibility
standpoint it's probably fine. And since this is a forum on
accessibility, not usability, I won't go there.

Philip Lanier
Senior, Informatics
University of Washington



On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Lori K. Brown wrote:

> Dear WebAIM:
>
> I work on a web-based collaboration software product called SiteScape
> Forum. We are attempting to make the HTML that our product renders
> standards compliant and accessible in the coming version.
>
> In a number of instances we list entries in a table, and the first few
> columns of data include a checkbox that users can click to select the
> item for deletion. Currently, the column that contains that checkbox
> does not have any heading text above it, and there's really no logical
> (at least to us) space available in the table to render a label for each
> instance of the checkbox. Repetitive labeling ('this is the deletion
> checkbox') seems pretty pointless, and a waste of screen real estate.
>
> My questions:
>
> 1) Does every column of a data table HAVE to have some kind of text
> heading? I understand that column headings should be associated with the
> data they label, but do I in fact need to supply headings in the first
> place? (I think it's common sense, but we cannot come to agreement on
> this in my dept.)
>
> 2) Can I solve this problem by using a title attribute on the checkbox
> to label it for text reader users, since the purpose of the check box is
> readily apparent to sighted users?
>
> To make it easier to tell what the heck I'm talking about, I have
> uploaded a screen capture of the table I am talking about at:
> http://www.sitescape.com/other/tableslabels.gif
>
> The columns that do have headings above them are associated with their
> appropriate data with the tag scope="blah", as appropriate.
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>
> Lori K. Brown
> User Interface Engineer
> SiteScape, Inc.
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>


----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Lori K. Brown
Date: Thu, Aug 01 2002 3:39PM
Subject: Re: column headings, labels, form elements
← Previous message | Next message →

philip steven lanier wrote:

>"...since the purpose of the check box is readily apparent to sighted
>users."
>
>I looked at the screen capture you sent us, and it wasn't readily apparent
>to me (I am sighted) that the checkbox was for deleting the item.
>However, I am not a regular user of this site/page, so that does make a
>difference. Regardless, however, it seems to me that this is more of a
>usability issue. Users reading the page with a screen reader should have
>no trouble identifying the contents of the "checkbox column", since all
>the cells in that column are checkoxes and there is only one column with
>checkboxes. Of course there should be a way to identify what row the cell
>is in, but this does not concern the column heading.
>
>In any case, the checkboxes are not likely to be any more ambiguous for
>non-sighted users than for sighted users. From the accessibility
>standpoint it's probably fine. And since this is a forum on
>accessibility, not usability, I won't go there.
>

Mr Lanier --

All fair points. I want there to be a better column heading, but my
co-workers think terse is better, and are leery of spending the
horizontal real estate on what they regard as a somewhat redundant label.

Thanks for your feedback.

Lori Brown

>
>Philip Lanier
>Senior, Informatics
>University of Washington
>
>
>
>On Thu, 1 Aug 2002, Lori K. Brown wrote:
>
>
>
>>Dear WebAIM:
>>
>>I work on a web-based collaboration software product called SiteScape
>>Forum. We are attempting to make the HTML that our product renders
>>standards compliant and accessible in the coming version.
>>
>>In a number of instances we list entries in a table, and the first few
>>columns of data include a checkbox that users can click to select the
>>item for deletion. Currently, the column that contains that checkbox
>>does not have any heading text above it, and there's really no logical
>>(at least to us) space available in the table to render a label for each
>>instance of the checkbox. Repetitive labeling ('this is the deletion
>>checkbox') seems pretty pointless, and a waste of screen real estate.
>>
>>My questions:
>>
>>1) Does every column of a data table HAVE to have some kind of text
>>heading? I understand that column headings should be associated with the
>>data they label, but do I in fact need to supply headings in the first
>>place? (I think it's common sense, but we cannot come to agreement on
>>this in my dept.)
>>
>>2) Can I solve this problem by using a title attribute on the checkbox
>>to label it for text reader users, since the purpose of the check box is
>>readily apparent to sighted users?
>>
>>To make it easier to tell what the heck I'm talking about, I have
>>uploaded a screen capture of the table I am talking about at:
>>http://www.sitescape.com/other/tableslabels.gif
>>
>>The columns that do have headings above them are associated with their
>>appropriate data with the tag scope="blah", as appropriate.
>>
>>Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>>
>>Lori K. Brown
>>User Interface Engineer
>>SiteScape, Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>>----
>>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>>
>>
>

From: Leo Smith
Date: Fri, Aug 02 2002 5:30AM
Subject: Re: column headings, labels, form elements
← Previous message | Next message →

I think that your checkboxes need to have some kind of
heading/label informing users what the checkboxes do, both for
sighted and non-sighted users. Why not have a column heading
"Delete" and title attributes on the <input> elements "select for
item deletion"

leo.

On 1 Aug 2002, at 14:43, Lori K. Brown wrote:

> Dear WebAIM:
>
> I work on a web-based collaboration software product called SiteScape
> Forum. We are attempting to make the HTML that our product renders
> standards compliant and accessible in the coming version.
>
> In a number of instances we list entries in a table, and the first few
> columns of data include a checkbox that users can click to select the
> item for deletion. Currently, the column that contains that checkbox
> does not have any heading text above it, and there's really no logical
> (at least to us) space available in the table to render a label for
> each instance of the checkbox. Repetitive labeling ('this is the
> deletion checkbox') seems pretty pointless, and a waste of screen real
> estate.
>
> My questions:
>
> 1) Does every column of a data table HAVE to have some kind of text
> heading? I understand that column headings should be associated with
> the data they label, but do I in fact need to supply headings in the
> first place? (I think it's common sense, but we cannot come to
> agreement on this in my dept.)
>
> 2) Can I solve this problem by using a title attribute on the checkbox
> to label it for text reader users, since the purpose of the check box
> is readily apparent to sighted users?
>
> To make it easier to tell what the heck I'm talking about, I have
> uploaded a screen capture of the table I am talking about at:
> http://www.sitescape.com/other/tableslabels.gif
>
> The columns that do have headings above them are associated with their
> appropriate data with the tag scope="blah", as appropriate.
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>
> Lori K. Brown
> User Interface Engineer
> SiteScape, Inc.
>
>
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>



Leo Smith
Web Designer/Developer
USM Office of Publications and Marketing
University of Southern Maine
207-780-4774


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To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
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From: Carol Foster
Date: Tue, Aug 06 2002 9:42AM
Subject: Re: column headings, labels, form elements
← Previous message | Next message →

Related to this question, I have also been wondering about form labels for
forms in tables, e.g. where the column header really serves as the form
label for all the forms in that column. This conflicts with the HTML rules
that say one label goes with one form element only. I tried ignoring this
and using the column header/label for all the fields in that column because
maybe this is better for accessibility? But does this violate SEction 508
form criteria because the label/header is not adjacent to the elements, or
does a header count as being adjacent?

The complex form we were working with is at
http://www.umass-i495.net/registration/regform.cfm

Thanks,
Carol

P.S. Also related (in my mind at least) are questions about repeating the
same link text for links that go to different places when the links are
tabularized. The example I have in mind here is for campus links for
different Student Services at http://www.umassonline.net/services/. I know
this violates the WAI Priority 2 link text checkpoint; how would others
handle this? One possibility is the title field.


"Lori K. Brown" wrote:

> Dear WebAIM:
>
> I work on a web-based collaboration software product called SiteScape
> Forum. We are attempting to make the HTML that our product renders
> standards compliant and accessible in the coming version.
>
> In a number of instances we list entries in a table, and the first few
> columns of data include a checkbox that users can click to select the
> item for deletion. Currently, the column that contains that checkbox
> does not have any heading text above it, and there's really no logical
> (at least to us) space available in the table to render a label for each
> instance of the checkbox. Repetitive labeling ('this is the deletion
> checkbox') seems pretty pointless, and a waste of screen real estate.
>
> My questions:
>
> 1) Does every column of a data table HAVE to have some kind of text
> heading? I understand that column headings should be associated with the
> data they label, but do I in fact need to supply headings in the first
> place? (I think it's common sense, but we cannot come to agreement on
> this in my dept.)
>
> 2) Can I solve this problem by using a title attribute on the checkbox
> to label it for text reader users, since the purpose of the check box is
> readily apparent to sighted users?
>
> To make it easier to tell what the heck I'm talking about, I have
> uploaded a screen capture of the table I am talking about at:
> http://www.sitescape.com/other/tableslabels.gif
>
> The columns that do have headings above them are associated with their
> appropriate data with the tag scope="blah", as appropriate.
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>
> Lori K. Brown
> User Interface Engineer
> SiteScape, Inc.
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

--
Carol Foster, Web Developer
Internet Publishing Group, Information Technology Services
University of Massachusetts, President's Office
phone: (413) 587-2130
fax: (413) 587-2148
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.umass-its.net/ipg
--



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To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: tedge
Date: Tue, Aug 06 2002 1:25PM
Subject: Applications Development & 508 - A question
← Previous message | Next message →

Any information that you can give on making online mainframe systems
(CICS) compliant would be helpful. Architecturally, is there a layer
that could be added? Can CICS programming be made more object oriented
in order to accomodate Section 508? Are there any mainframe shops that
serve as a model?

Thanks for your help!


TecAccess
Tracy Edge
Testing and Assessment Manager
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(804) 749-8646
www.tecaccess.net



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From: Michael R. Burks
Date: Tue, Aug 06 2002 3:44PM
Subject: RE: Applications Development & 508 - A question
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It seems to me that CICS is involved with content, not presentaton. I would
be more worried about how you present the information.

I would talk to www.ibm.com/sns about this.

Again I would worry about presentaton not content. CICS is as I recall
involved with retrieving and managing the data, not presenting it.

Sincerely,

Mike Burks

Constructing Accessibible Websites
www.icdri.org/constructing_accessible_web_site.htm

From: Steve Vosloo
Date: Wed, Aug 07 2002 1:02AM
Subject: RE: column headings, labels, form elements
← Previous message | Next message →

A potential workaround might be to place an invisible 1x1 pixel GIF
directly before the FORM field and place a <LABEL> Tag around that?

Steve

From: Steve Vosloo
Date: Wed, Aug 07 2002 1:04AM
Subject: Same link text going to different places
← Previous message | Next message →

On your 2nd issue (thought it appropriate to create a new thread):

Also related (in my mind at least) are questions about repeating the
same link text for links that go to different places when the links are
tabularized. The example I have in mind here is for campus links for
different Student Services at http://www.umassonline.net/services/. I
know this violates the WAI Priority 2 link text checkpoint; how would
others handle this? One possibility is the title field.

I'm also stuck on this point ... I suppose it depends on how much
support the TITLE attribute has. Anyone got any advice?

Steve




"Lori K. Brown" wrote:

> Dear WebAIM:
>
> I work on a web-based collaboration software product called SiteScape
> Forum. We are attempting to make the HTML that our product renders
> standards compliant and accessible in the coming version.
>
> In a number of instances we list entries in a table, and the first few

> columns of data include a checkbox that users can click to select the
> item for deletion. Currently, the column that contains that checkbox
> does not have any heading text above it, and there's really no logical

> (at least to us) space available in the table to render a label for
> each instance of the checkbox. Repetitive labeling ('this is the
> deletion
> checkbox') seems pretty pointless, and a waste of screen real estate.
>
> My questions:
>
> 1) Does every column of a data table HAVE to have some kind of text
> heading? I understand that column headings should be associated with
> the data they label, but do I in fact need to supply headings in the
> first place? (I think it's common sense, but we cannot come to
> agreement on this in my dept.)
>
> 2) Can I solve this problem by using a title attribute on the checkbox

> to label it for text reader users, since the purpose of the check box
> is readily apparent to sighted users?
>
> To make it easier to tell what the heck I'm talking about, I have
> uploaded a screen capture of the table I am talking about at:
> http://www.sitescape.com/other/tableslabels.gif
>
> The columns that do have headings above them are associated with their

> appropriate data with the tag scope="blah", as appropriate.
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>
> Lori K. Brown
> User Interface Engineer
> SiteScape, Inc.
>
> ----
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

--
Carol Foster, Web Developer
Internet Publishing Group, Information Technology Services University of
Massachusetts, President's Office
phone: (413) 587-2130
fax: (413) 587-2148
mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.umass-its.net/ipg
--



----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/



----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/

From: Leo Smith
Date: Wed, Aug 07 2002 6:15AM
Subject: Re: column headings, labels, form elements
← Previous message | Next message →

com.sun.mail.imap.IMAPInputStream@7d54d6

From: Jim Thatcher
Date: Wed, Aug 07 2002 10:23AM
Subject: RE: column headings, labels, form elements
← Previous message | Next message →

Steve, I think the title attribute on the input element is better than using
the hidden label on an invisible gif.

Jim Thatcher
Accessibility Consulting
http://jimthatcher.com
512-306-0931

From: Leesa Lavigne
Date: Sat, Aug 10 2002 1:58PM
Subject: RE: Same link text going to different places
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi, Just a thought. Could you change the table so the towns were on one
axis and the Services on the other, using a caption of Matrix of campus
links by Town and Service. Then place icons or text in the table using the
proper markup for column and row headers. I would think it would be much
easier for a screen reader since the person could scan down to find the town
they were interested in and then allow thier reader to read the links,
including table header info coded in, across. When the table is coded
properly the reader should only repeat the town name when the visiter
changes rows. Leesa Lavigne

From: Steve Vosloo
Date: Mon, Aug 12 2002 12:33PM
Subject: RE: column headings, labels, form elements
← Previous message | No next message

So would you not use the <LABEL> tag then?

Steve