E-mail List Archives
Thread: User stylesheets (was: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com)
Number of posts in this thread: 10 (In chronological order)
From: Christophe Strobbe
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2011 3:15AM
Subject: User stylesheets (was: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com)
No previous message | Next message →
Hi,
At 20:12 28-7-2011, John Foliot wrote:
>(...)
>I think it reinforces the idea that allowing user-supplied style-sheets is
>a significant a11y consideration - in other words authors should avoid
>inline styles whenever possible in favor of linked styles so that some
>users who desire alternative display contrasts (etc.) can do so with
>stability/predictability. I believe Wayne Dick (CSU system) has written on
>this issue in the past, but I was unable to actually put my hands on
>anything quickly.
Below is what I found in my bookmarks:
* How to Use Enlarging Style Sheets:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JanMar/att-0005/Help.htm>;,
which is an attachment to
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-eo/2005JanMar/0005.html>;
(5 January 2005)
* Text in background images from CSS:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2010JulSep/0006.html>;
Articles by other authors:
* <http://css-discuss.incutio.com/wiki/User_Stylesheets>;
* <http://wiki.noljads.com/User_Stylesheets>;
* Silas S. Brown: Stylesheets for low vision:
<http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/ssb22/css/>;
(JISC Techdis in the UK used to have a "User Style Sheet Wizard", but
it is no longer available.)
Best regards,
Christophe
--
Christophe Strobbe
K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD
Research Group on Document Architectures
Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442
B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
BELGIUM
tel: +32 16 32 85 51
http://www.docarch.be/
Twitter: @RabelaisA11y
---
Open source for accessibility: results from the AEGIS project
www.aegis-project.eu
---
Please don't invite me to Facebook, Quechup or other "social
networks". You may have agreed to their "privacy policy", but I haven't.
From: YOUNGV5
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2011 5:48AM
Subject: Re: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com
← Previous message | Next message →
Got it. Very interested to find out more. Most every accessibility
evaluation tool cries about in-line styles We all have been taught to use
external style sheets for accessibility reason and have told others to do
so. I'd like to be able to point people to a definitive practical answer
why in-line styles are a problem. As of right now, I find it tough to do
so from an accessibility perspective.
Vincent Young
User Experience, Web Accessibility Specialist
Nationwide Corporate Marketing
Nationwide®
o | 614·677·5094
c | 614·607·3400
e | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From:
"Jukka K. Korpela" < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
To:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Date:
07/29/2011 02:58 AM
Subject:
Re: [WebAIM] Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com
Sent by:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
29.07.2011 02:06, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> @YUCCA - I'd like a little more explanation from you on the following
> comment:
>
> Inline styles have their problems, but how would it make a difference to
> set, say, some properties for a single paragraph using <p style="...">
> versus using <p id="foo"> and setting the styles for #foo in a style
> element or in an external stylesheet?
>
> Did you mean what difference would it make from an accessibility
> perspective?
Exactly. The differences from other perspectives have at most a
potential indirect influence on accessibility. If code is easier to
maintain, authors may have more time to devote to accessibility
considerations. But an author who wants to style an individual element a
bit, for some special reason, may well find it easier and more
maintainable to just slap in a style='...' attribute, instead of
inventing a class or id attribute and finding a place in a style sheet
to enter a CSS rule.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
From: Peter Krantz
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2011 6:03AM
Subject: Re: User stylesheets (was: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com)
← Previous message | Next message →
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:17, Christophe Strobbe >
>
> (JISC Techdis in the UK used to have a "User Style Sheet Wizard", but
> it is no longer available.)
>
Is anyone using user stylesheets? Creating a css file is not easily
done by the average user (not even web developers get them right a lot
of the time). I have a feeling that very few are actually using this
type of functionality in their browser.
What would you do in the stylesheet? A lot of the stuff can already be
done in the browser or OS.
Regards,
Peter
From: Christophe Strobbe
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2011 6:54AM
Subject: Re: User stylesheets (was: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com)
← Previous message | Next message →
At 13:59 29-7-2011, you wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 11:17, Christophe Strobbe >
> >
> > (JISC Techdis in the UK used to have a "User Style Sheet Wizard", but
> > it is no longer available.)
> >
>
>Is anyone using user stylesheets? Creating a css file is not easily
>done by the average user (not even web developers get them right a lot
>of the time). I have a feeling that very few are actually using this
>type of functionality in their browser.
After roughly 10 years in Web accessibility, I have met only two
persons who use user stylesheets: Wayne Dick and one other person. I
admit that this does not constitute representative sampling.
In the past there have been attempts to provide guidance and help
about user stylesheets. If my memory is correct, Kynn Bartlett
(author of "Teach Yourself Cascading Style Sheets in 24 Hours") set
up a website with instructions for every major browser, but that
website disappeared a long time ago.
The problem with such websites is that people who don't know the
concept of user stylesheets (probably most users) are unlikely to
find the right information. Accessibility toolbars and extensions
like the JISC Techdis Toolbar (sadly discontinued), the RNIB Surf
Right Toolbar, WebVisum, Aries Arditi's LowBrowse extension etctera
face the same challenge: how do you promote uptake by those who need
it? (RNIB can inform its members; other toolbars and extensions need
to find other channels.)
The same applies to resources like the W3C's "Better Web Browsing:
Tips for Customizing Your Computer" <http://www.w3.org/WAI/users/browsing>;.
The only way I can think of right now is informing organisations that
represent persons with disabilities and hope they pass on the
information to their members. (I know there are mailing lists for
blind users, screen reader users, blind programmers, etcetera, but
the intended audience is wider than these lists.)
If people on this list know other methods, please share!
>What would you do in the stylesheet? A lot of the stuff can already be
>done in the browser or OS.
Yes, but how do you teach people to fish when they don't know what
fishing is? (Cf. "Text Resize Widgets and Fishing"
<http://www.uiaccess.com/textresizewidgetno.html>;.)
Best regards,
Christophe
>Regards,
>
>Peter
--
Christophe Strobbe
K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD
Research Group on Document Architectures
Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442
B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
BELGIUM
tel: +32 16 32 85 51
http://www.docarch.be/
Twitter: @RabelaisA11y
---
Open source for accessibility: results from the AEGIS project
www.aegis-project.eu
---
Please don't invite me to Facebook, Quechup or other "social
networks". You may have agreed to their "privacy policy", but I haven't.
From: deborah.kaplan
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2011 7:45AM
Subject: Re: User stylesheets (was: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com)
← Previous message | Next message →
On Fri, 29 Jul 2011, Peter Krantz wrote:
> Is anyone using user stylesheets?
*raises hand* I know I'm not a typical user, but I have a
stylesheet I switch to that shows me alt text in Opera (when you
turn off images, Opera defaults to keeping the exact same
dimensions used by the image for displaying the alt text, which
means that most alt text is illegible unless you change the
style).
But actually, I know tons of users who use stylish
(<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/stylish/>).
Looks like that Firefox extension has 422 reviews and, whoa,
15,750,650 downloads. So even if only 1% of those downloads
correspond to real users of the extension, that's 157,000 users
of User style sheets.
-deborah
From: YOUNGV5
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2011 8:24AM
Subject: Re: User stylesheets (was: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com)
← Previous message | Next message →
Great example. For the in-line style debate, I don't believe Stylish or
Opera has a problem overriding in-line styles. Wondering what does...
Vincent Young
User Experience, Web Accessibility Specialist
Nationwide Corporate Marketing
Nationwide®
o | 614·677·5094
c | 614·607·3400
e | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
From:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
To:
WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date:
07/29/2011 09:47 AM
Subject:
Re: [WebAIM] User stylesheets (was: Interesting cause:
http://contrastrebellion.com)
Sent by:
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
On Fri, 29 Jul 2011, Peter Krantz wrote:
> Is anyone using user stylesheets?
*raises hand* I know I'm not a typical user, but I have a
stylesheet I switch to that shows me alt text in Opera (when you
turn off images, Opera defaults to keeping the exact same
dimensions used by the image for displaying the alt text, which
means that most alt text is illegible unless you change the
style).
But actually, I know tons of users who use stylish
(<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/stylish/>).
Looks like that Firefox extension has 422 reviews and, whoa,
15,750,650 downloads. So even if only 1% of those downloads
correspond to real users of the extension, that's 157,000 users
of User style sheets.
-deborah
From: Peter Krantz
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2011 10:45AM
Subject: Re: User stylesheets (was: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com)
← Previous message | Next message →
On Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 15:46, < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Looks like that Firefox extension has 422 reviews and, whoa,
> 15,750,650 downloads. So even if only 1% of those downloads
> correspond to real users of the extension, that's 157,000 users
> of User style sheets.
>
But not primarily for accessibility purposes. Most of those
stylesheets make Twitter look like Gmail or inserts you favorite
TV-show characters in your email app header.
I still argue that basic functionality for accessibility should be
removed from websites and included in browser and/or OS.
From a product sales perspective it is of curse much better if each
website owner had to buy text to speech or text resizing
functionality.
Regards,
Peter
From: Bevi Chagnon
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2011 11:03AM
Subject: Re: User stylesheets (was: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com)
← Previous message | Next message →
Peter K. wrote:
" it is of curse much better if each website owner had to buy text to speech
or text resizing functionality."
"Curse" or "Course"?
Great Freudian slip or deliberate comment?
Good either way!
- Bevi Chagnon
-----------------------------------------------------
Bevi Chagnon | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
PubCom - Trainers, consultants, designers, and developers
Print | Web | Acrobat | XML | Section 508
-----------------------------------------------------
Classes: www.PubCom.com/classes
Bevi's Blog: www.pubcom.com/blog
-----------------------------------------------------
* It's our 30th Year! *
From: Léonie Watson
Date: Fri, Jul 29 2011 1:12PM
Subject: Re: Interesting cause: http://contrastrebellion.com
← Previous message | Next message →
John Foliot wrote:
"I think it reinforces the idea that allowing user-supplied style-sheets is
a significant a11y consideration - in other words authors should avoid
inline styles whenever possible in favor of linked styles so that some users
who desire alternative display contrasts (etc.) can do so with
stability/predictability. I believe Wayne Dick (CSU system) has written on
this issue in the past, but I was unable to actually put my hands on
anything quickly."
From a development perspective that makes sense. I'm not sure that
many people would have the knowledge to put their own style sheet together
though?
Léonie.
From: Jukka K. Korpela
Date: Sat, Jul 30 2011 10:54AM
Subject: Re: User stylesheets
← Previous message | No next message
29.07.2011 16:46, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2011, Peter Krantz wrote:
>> Is anyone using user stylesheets?
>
> *raises hand*
Me too - even when using the web as a user, e.g. when I want to print a
page but Print Preview shows that it would fail miserably. I use Firefox
Web Developer Extension, which is great for browsing too, not just
development.
> I know I'm not a typical user,
Yes, typical users know little about stylesheets, and user stylesheets
are often "nice to have" rather than essential to accessibility.
> But actually, I know tons of users who use stylish
> (<https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/stylish/>).
Yes, it makes styling easier, but you still need to code CSS, as
opposite to using wysiwyg tools.
I am, like others who have commented, disappointed at the practical
failure of user stylesheets in most areas of potential use. But I don't
think the idea needs to be abandoned.
From the accessibility perspective, I think what we need is educated
users, typically without major disabilities, who are capable and willing
to help their relatives, friends, colleagues and others. After all, a
user style sheet need not be literally written by the user. It can be
designed by a helpful person who knows how to struggle through the
complexities of styling and set up a stylesheet for someone else,
according to his problems and preferences.
Many of the accessibility-related features can be set using just browser
settings, especially in Firefox, without CSS. I'm thinking of things
like overriding page fonts or color or setting a minimum font size. This
involves choosing between the available fonts (maybe even downloading
new fonts) and selecting the other settings, so this too is something
that people often benefit from other people's help, as there are many
technicalities.
And one might then need CSS to deal with issues that cannot be handled
with browser settings. Such as line height (which is often too small),
text alignment (left-aligned vs. centered, right-aligned, or justified),
and site-specific problems that may need specific fixes.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/