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Number of posts in this thread: 8 (In chronological order)

From: Dona Patrick
Date: Thu, Jun 01 2017 9:03AM
Subject: Scope attributes vs ID and Headers attributes
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Dear Webaim List,

I was asked to research scope vs id and headers attributes for HTML tables.
I know what they are and I know how to use them, but I need backup
responses from experts like you to satisfy the client.

We have over 200 complex tables to remediate (for a US Government agency).
Some have two levels of column headers and one level of row headers
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx8AFXyl5hgRaWJQRXFRaFFlZG8/view?usp=sharing>,
some have 4 levels of column headers and one level of row headers
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx8AFXyl5hgRWHptd2VoR0VfMDA/view?usp=sharing>
and some have 5 levels of column headers and one level of row headers
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx8AFXyl5hgRZjE4Y2dKeGpSSzg/view>. (I
have linked each of the types to images of examples of the tables on Google
Drive because I am assuming I cannot attach files here).

When I first saw the tables I said that they all needed ID and headers
attributes, but now I wonder if only the tables with 4 and 5 levels of
column headers need ID and headers attributes and the tables with only two
levels of column headers (with merged cells in the first level).

This is for HHS if that matters. I suggested that the folks ask the HHS
Section 508 coordinator, but they wanted your opinion first.

I am also going to suggest that some of these tables are broken into
simpler tables.

Thanks,

Dona Patrick

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Thu, Jun 01 2017 9:13AM
Subject: Re: Scope attributes vs ID and Headers attributes
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Donna wrote:
"This is for HHS if that matters."

I was just about to write that the tables with the more complex column headers, such as <https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx8AFXyl5hgRZjE4Y2dKeGpSSzg/view>, might be able to be broken into 2 separate tables, which reduces the tedium of multi-level headers.

But if you do check with the HHS 508 office, they'll probably require that you do just that. Break bigger tables into 2 or more tables and reduce many of the column header levels. Sure makes it easier to deal with the IDs and scope, as well as providing a better experience for those who use AT.

--Bevi Chagnon

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Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists, Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers
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From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Thu, Jun 01 2017 9:20AM
Subject: Re: Scope attributes vs ID and Headers attributes
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> We have over 200 complex tables to remediate (for a US Government agency).
Some have two levels of column headers and one level of row headers

The two level ones can use scope. The key with using scope is that every cell within the scope of that header has that header applied. So if you have a row that acts like a column header for one group of rows and another row that acts like a column header for another group of rows then you have to use ids and headers. Obviously there are other choices such as splitting up the table, etc. -- but my assumption is that the table can't be changed. Scope works for many assistive technologies with spanned cells -- but again its scope applies to all cells within the scope row, column, etc.

Your 4 and 5 level example would need ids/headers.

Another question that some people have asked is can you mix headers/id and scope attributes. From reading the HTML specification it seems to indicate that the header for a data cell is calculated on a per cell basis. So for any given cell you can't mix them -- but in theory within a table it might be theoretically possible although I would not recommend mixing them.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group 
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From: Ryan Benson
Date: Thu, Jun 01 2017 11:22AM
Subject: Re: Scope attributes vs ID and Headers attributes
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The 508 coordinator's decision will override any decision made on the list.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 1, 2017, at 11:03, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> I

From: Dona Patrick
Date: Thu, Jun 01 2017 11:58AM
Subject: Re: Scope attributes vs ID and Headers attributes
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Haha -- Ryan. When I told the folks who asked me to do this I said that I
knew that one of the responses would be "Ask the 508 Coordinator" and that
I knew who would say it. :-) Thanks for allowing me to be correct.

Dona

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Ryan Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> The 508 coordinator's decision will override any decision made on the list.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jun 1, 2017, at 11:03, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> >
> > I
> > > > >

From: Dona Patrick
Date: Thu, Jun 01 2017 1:32PM
Subject: Re: Scope attributes vs ID and Headers attributes
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Thanks everyone for your responses. It is all pretty much as I expected.

Dona

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Haha -- Ryan. When I told the folks who asked me to do this I said that I
> knew that one of the responses would be "Ask the 508 Coordinator" and that
> I knew who would say it. :-) Thanks for allowing me to be correct.
>
> Dona
>
> On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Ryan Benson < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
>> The 508 coordinator's decision will override any decision made on the
>> list.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On Jun 1, 2017, at 11:03, Dona Patrick < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>> >
>> > I
>> >> >> >> >>
>
>

From: Angela French
Date: Thu, Jun 01 2017 2:13PM
Subject: Re: Scope attributes vs ID and Headers attributes
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I would love to see the marked up html for those complex tables. If you end up marking them would you share?

Angela French
SBCTC

From: Dona Patrick
Date: Thu, Jun 01 2017 2:32PM
Subject: Re: Scope attributes vs ID and Headers attributes
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Sure, Angela. Not the real tables, but my mockups. Contact me off-list and
I can send you a sample before long. (I am not really doing these --
someone else will be making them compliant. I am just the checker, but I
know how to do it)

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 4:13 PM, Angela French < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> I would love to see the marked up html for those complex tables. If you
> end up marking them would you share?
>
> Angela French
> SBCTC
>
>