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Thread: Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tags
Number of posts in this thread: 6 (In chronological order)
From: Mark Rummel
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2018 12:23PM
Subject: Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tags
No previous message | Next message →
When I convert/save a pdf from Microsoft Word, its styles are converted to structure tags and not container tags. So when I open the Reading Order panel to check the tags, all the tags are <p> because it is reading the container tags. If I go into the properties then I can see the structure tags (they match the MS styles) and the container tags. Of course I can change it there, but that seems odd that I should have to do that.
Am I doing something wrong when converting the PDFs? I am selecting the online version instead of the print version when saving on this mac.
Any help would be great.
Thanks,
-Mark
------------------------------------------
Mark Rummel
Digital and Creative Services Coordinator
St. Clair County Community College
323 Erie Street, P.O. Box 5015
Port Huron, MI 48061-5015
Office 810-989-5809
Mobile 586-823-0204
sc4.edu<https://www.sc4.edu/>
Connect with us!
Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/followSC4> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/followSC4> | Instagram<https://www.instagram.com/followSC4/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/school/st.-clair-county-community-college/> | Flickr<https://www.flickr.com/photos/followsc4/>
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2018 1:11PM
Subject: Re: Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
I've seen this before and am not sure of the exact cause. I think it may
occur when you use the Microsoft "export to PDF" engine instead of the
Adobe Acrobat plug-in "Save as PDF" engine, but I'm not quite sure. You
are right that you shouldn't have to edit the containers to match the
tags after generating a PDF.
There are several variables you can control when generating a PDF from
Microsoft Word:
* which PDF conversion engine (Microsoft vs Adobe Acrobat)
* which operating system (Windows vs. Mac version of Acrobat)
* which version of Microsoft Word
* which version of Acrobat
* which PDF options are selected for your export
If you use the most recent versions of Acrobat DC Pro and Microsoft Word
on Windows and use the "Save As" PDF option that becomes available after
installing Acrobat, then you should not run into the issue you describe.
You can try altering various options above to see if your output is
different.
Currently, I think that the Mac version of MS Word and of Acrobat
Professional DC lag considerably behind their Windows counterparts. I
would recommend against trying to generate accessible PDFs from Mac
versions of MS Word and Acrobat.
Phil.
On 2018-12-10 2:23 PM, Mark Rummel wrote:
> When I convert/save a pdf from Microsoft Word, its styles are converted to structure tags and not container tags. So when I open the Reading Order panel to check the tags, all the tags are <p> because it is reading the container tags. If I go into the properties then I can see the structure tags (they match the MS styles) and the container tags. Of course I can change it there, but that seems odd that I should have to do that.
>
> Am I doing something wrong when converting the PDFs? I am selecting the online version instead of the print version when saving on this mac.
>
> Any help would be great.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Mark
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Mark Rummel
> Digital and Creative Services Coordinator
> St. Clair County Community College
> 323 Erie Street, P.O. Box 5015
> Port Huron, MI 48061-5015
> Office 810-989-5809
> Mobile 586-823-0204
> sc4.edu<https://www.sc4.edu/>
> Connect with us!
> Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/followSC4> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/followSC4> | Instagram<https://www.instagram.com/followSC4/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/school/st.-clair-county-community-college/> | Flickr<https://www.flickr.com/photos/followsc4/>
>
>
> > > >
From: L Snider
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2018 2:21PM
Subject: Re: Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
Hi Mark,
Just to confirm, did you see the correct tags in the tags panel itself? It
sounds like you did, but the Reading Order panel is wrong.
I am curious about this, because I am finding InDesign documents on the Mac
convert to span tags for paragraph and heading tags in the Reading Order
tool, but they are correct in the tags panel. I am also now finding that
Word files are starting to do the same in Acrobat Pro. This happens on both
PC and Mac. I use fast insider of Word, so others might not be seeing this
issue yet. It should be mainstream in a couple of months when they release
this version to the public.
I have also found recently on my Mac Word docs that Mac is not keeping the
styles in when it goes to Acrobat Pro. Headings routinely come up as just
paragraphs. However, this is both in the tags and reading order tool...
Cheers
Lisa
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:11 PM Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> I've seen this before and am not sure of the exact cause. I think it may
> occur when you use the Microsoft "export to PDF" engine instead of the
> Adobe Acrobat plug-in "Save as PDF" engine, but I'm not quite sure. You
> are right that you shouldn't have to edit the containers to match the
> tags after generating a PDF.
>
> There are several variables you can control when generating a PDF from
> Microsoft Word:
>
> * which PDF conversion engine (Microsoft vs Adobe Acrobat)
> * which operating system (Windows vs. Mac version of Acrobat)
> * which version of Microsoft Word
> * which version of Acrobat
> * which PDF options are selected for your export
>
> If you use the most recent versions of Acrobat DC Pro and Microsoft Word
> on Windows and use the "Save As" PDF option that becomes available after
> installing Acrobat, then you should not run into the issue you describe.
>
> You can try altering various options above to see if your output is
> different.
>
> Currently, I think that the Mac version of MS Word and of Acrobat
> Professional DC lag considerably behind their Windows counterparts. I
> would recommend against trying to generate accessible PDFs from Mac
> versions of MS Word and Acrobat.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2018-12-10 2:23 PM, Mark Rummel wrote:
> > When I convert/save a pdf from Microsoft Word, its styles are converted
> to structure tags and not container tags. So when I open the Reading Order
> panel to check the tags, all the tags are <p> because it is reading the
> container tags. If I go into the properties then I can see the structure
> tags (they match the MS styles) and the container tags. Of course I can
> change it there, but that seems odd that I should have to do that.
> >
> > Am I doing something wrong when converting the PDFs? I am selecting the
> online version instead of the print version when saving on this mac.
> >
> > Any help would be great.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -Mark
> >
> > ------------------------------------------
> > Mark Rummel
> > Digital and Creative Services Coordinator
> > St. Clair County Community College
> > 323 Erie Street, P.O. Box 5015
> > Port Huron, MI 48061-5015
> > Office 810-989-5809
> > Mobile 586-823-0204
> > sc4.edu<https://www.sc4.edu/>
> > Connect with us!
> > Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/followSC4> | Twitter<
> https://twitter.com/followSC4> | Instagram<
> https://www.instagram.com/followSC4/> | LinkedIn<
> https://www.linkedin.com/school/st.-clair-county-community-college/> |
> Flickr<https://www.flickr.com/photos/followsc4/>
> >
> >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
From: Mark Rummel
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2018 5:39PM
Subject: Re: Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
So I am using the most recent of Word (Version 16.19 through Office 365) and Acrobat Pro DC (Version 2019.008.20080).
Here are two screen shots of the tags
https://www.sc4.edu/Assets/TEMP_ScreenShot_01.png
https://www.sc4.edu/Assets/TEMP_ScreenShot_02.png
I made the PDFs using the "Save As" and then tried the PDF tab on the ribbon and got the same results.
Thanks for the replies, I'll keep looking into it. I can go back to using a PC for converting the documents.
-Mark
------------------------------------------
Mark Rummel
Digital and Creative Services Coordinator
St. Clair County Community College
323 Erie Street, P.O. Box 5015
Port Huron, MI 48061-5015
Office 810-989-5809
Mobile 586-823-0204
sc4.edu<https://www.sc4.edu/>
Connect with us!
Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/followSC4> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/followSC4> | Instagram<https://www.instagram.com/followSC4/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/school/st.-clair-county-community-college/> | Flickr<https://www.flickr.com/photos/followsc4/>
From: L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 4:21 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Cc: Mark Rummel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tag
Hi Mark,
Just to confirm, did you see the correct tags in the tags panel itself? It sounds like you did, but the Reading Order panel is wrong.
I am curious about this, because I am finding InDesign documents on the Mac convert to span tags for paragraph and heading tags in the Reading Order tool, but they are correct in the tags panel. I am also now finding that Word files are starting to do the same in Acrobat Pro. This happens on both PC and Mac. I use fast insider of Word, so others might not be seeing this issue yet. It should be mainstream in a couple of months when they release this version to the public.
I have also found recently on my Mac Word docs that Mac is not keeping the styles in when it goes to Acrobat Pro. Headings routinely come up as just paragraphs. However, this is both in the tags and reading order tool...
Cheers
Lisa
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:11 PM Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
I've seen this before and am not sure of the exact cause. I think it may
occur when you use the Microsoft "export to PDF" engine instead of the
Adobe Acrobat plug-in "Save as PDF" engine, but I'm not quite sure. You
are right that you shouldn't have to edit the containers to match the
tags after generating a PDF.
There are several variables you can control when generating a PDF from
Microsoft Word:
* which PDF conversion engine (Microsoft vs Adobe Acrobat)
* which operating system (Windows vs. Mac version of Acrobat)
* which version of Microsoft Word
* which version of Acrobat
* which PDF options are selected for your export
If you use the most recent versions of Acrobat DC Pro and Microsoft Word
on Windows and use the "Save As" PDF option that becomes available after
installing Acrobat, then you should not run into the issue you describe.
You can try altering various options above to see if your output is
different.
Currently, I think that the Mac version of MS Word and of Acrobat
Professional DC lag considerably behind their Windows counterparts. I
would recommend against trying to generate accessible PDFs from Mac
versions of MS Word and Acrobat.
Phil.
On 2018-12-10 2:23 PM, Mark Rummel wrote:
> When I convert/save a pdf from Microsoft Word, its styles are converted to structure tags and not container tags. So when I open the Reading Order panel to check the tags, all the tags are <p> because it is reading the container tags. If I go into the properties then I can see the structure tags (they match the MS styles) and the container tags. Of course I can change it there, but that seems odd that I should have to do that.
>
> Am I doing something wrong when converting the PDFs? I am selecting the online version instead of the print version when saving on this mac.
>
> Any help would be great.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Mark
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Mark Rummel
> Digital and Creative Services Coordinator
> St. Clair County Community College
> 323 Erie Street, P.O. Box 5015
> Port Huron, MI 48061-5015
> Office 810-989-5809
> Mobile 586-823-0204
> sc4.edu<http://sc4.edu>;<https://www.sc4.edu/>
> Connect with us!
> Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/followSC4> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/followSC4> | Instagram<https://www.instagram.com/followSC4/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/school/st.-clair-county-community-college/> | Flickr<https://www.flickr.com/photos/followsc4/>
>
>
> > > >
From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2018 5:45PM
Subject: Re: Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tags
← Previous message | Next message →
I've recently seen the Acrobat plugin using the role mapping fo map artifacts to paragraph tags. Check the role mappings to see if h3 is mapped to paragraph. Role mappings can be checked by right click or context menu in the tags tee.
Jonathan
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 10, 2018, at 7:39 PM, Mark Rummel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
>
>
> So I am using the most recent of Word (Version 16.19 through Office 365) and Acrobat Pro DC (Version 2019.008.20080).
>
> Here are two screen shots of the tags
>
> https://www.sc4.edu/Assets/TEMP_ScreenShot_01.png
> https://www.sc4.edu/Assets/TEMP_ScreenShot_02.png
>
> I made the PDFs using the "Save As" and then tried the PDF tab on the ribbon and got the same results.
>
> Thanks for the replies, I'll keep looking into it. I can go back to using a PC for converting the documents.
>
> -Mark
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Mark Rummel
> Digital and Creative Services Coordinator
> St. Clair County Community College
> 323 Erie Street, P.O. Box 5015
> Port Huron, MI 48061-5015
> Office 810-989-5809
> Mobile 586-823-0204
> sc4.edu<https://www.sc4.edu/>
> Connect with us!
> Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/followSC4> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/followSC4> | Instagram<https://www.instagram.com/followSC4/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/school/st.-clair-county-community-college/> | Flickr<https://www.flickr.com/photos/followsc4/>
>
>
>
> From: L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 4:21 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: Mark Rummel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tag
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> Just to confirm, did you see the correct tags in the tags panel itself? It sounds like you did, but the Reading Order panel is wrong.
>
> I am curious about this, because I am finding InDesign documents on the Mac convert to span tags for paragraph and heading tags in the Reading Order tool, but they are correct in the tags panel. I am also now finding that Word files are starting to do the same in Acrobat Pro. This happens on both PC and Mac. I use fast insider of Word, so others might not be seeing this issue yet. It should be mainstream in a couple of months when they release this version to the public.
>
> I have also found recently on my Mac Word docs that Mac is not keeping the styles in when it goes to Acrobat Pro. Headings routinely come up as just paragraphs. However, this is both in the tags and reading order tool...
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:11 PM Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
> I've seen this before and am not sure of the exact cause. I think it may
> occur when you use the Microsoft "export to PDF" engine instead of the
> Adobe Acrobat plug-in "Save as PDF" engine, but I'm not quite sure. You
> are right that you shouldn't have to edit the containers to match the
> tags after generating a PDF.
>
> There are several variables you can control when generating a PDF from
> Microsoft Word:
>
> * which PDF conversion engine (Microsoft vs Adobe Acrobat)
> * which operating system (Windows vs. Mac version of Acrobat)
> * which version of Microsoft Word
> * which version of Acrobat
> * which PDF options are selected for your export
>
> If you use the most recent versions of Acrobat DC Pro and Microsoft Word
> on Windows and use the "Save As" PDF option that becomes available after
> installing Acrobat, then you should not run into the issue you describe.
>
> You can try altering various options above to see if your output is
> different.
>
> Currently, I think that the Mac version of MS Word and of Acrobat
> Professional DC lag considerably behind their Windows counterparts. I
> would recommend against trying to generate accessible PDFs from Mac
> versions of MS Word and Acrobat.
>
> Phil.
>
>> On 2018-12-10 2:23 PM, Mark Rummel wrote:
>> When I convert/save a pdf from Microsoft Word, its styles are converted to structure tags and not container tags. So when I open the Reading Order panel to check the tags, all the tags are <p> because it is reading the container tags. If I go into the properties then I can see the structure tags (they match the MS styles) and the container tags. Of course I can change it there, but that seems odd that I should have to do that.
>>
>> Am I doing something wrong when converting the PDFs? I am selecting the online version instead of the print version when saving on this mac.
>>
>> Any help would be great.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Mark
>>
>> ------------------------------------------
>> Mark Rummel
>> Digital and Creative Services Coordinator
>> St. Clair County Community College
>> 323 Erie Street, P.O. Box 5015
>> Port Huron, MI 48061-5015
>> Office 810-989-5809
>> Mobile 586-823-0204
>> sc4.edu<http://sc4.edu>;<https://www.sc4.edu/>
>> Connect with us!
>> Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/followSC4> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/followSC4> | Instagram<https://www.instagram.com/followSC4/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/school/st.-clair-county-community-college/> | Flickr<https://www.flickr.com/photos/followsc4/>
>>
>>
>> >> >> >> > > > > > > > >
From: Philip Kiff
Date: Mon, Dec 10 2018 6:31PM
Subject: Re: Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tags
← Previous message | No next message
Mmmm. I can reproduce the behaviour Mark describes on my Windows 10
machine here using Word (Version 16.0.11029.20045) and Acrobat Pro DC
Continuous Release (Version 2019.008.20081).
But it only occurs when I use the built-in Microsoft Word conversion
engine, which is what you access in my version of Word when you select
File -> Export -> Create PDF/XPS Document.
When I do this, I get tags properly applied to headings, but the
containers for those headings that appear in the Content panel in
Acrobat are indeed all <P>, just like in Mark's screenshots.
If I instead select File -> Export -> Create Adobe PDF
or File -> Save as Adobe PDF
then the resulting PDF has containers that match the tags.
Weird.
Phil.
On 2018-12-10 7:39 PM, Mark Rummel wrote:
> So I am using the most recent of Word (Version 16.19 through Office 365) and Acrobat Pro DC (Version 2019.008.20080).
>
> Here are two screen shots of the tags
>
> https://www.sc4.edu/Assets/TEMP_ScreenShot_01.png
> https://www.sc4.edu/Assets/TEMP_ScreenShot_02.png
>
> I made the PDFs using the "Save As" and then tried the PDF tab on the ribbon and got the same results.
>
> Thanks for the replies, I'll keep looking into it. I can go back to using a PC for converting the documents.
>
> -Mark
>
> ------------------------------------------
> Mark Rummel
> Digital and Creative Services Coordinator
> St. Clair County Community College
> 323 Erie Street, P.O. Box 5015
> Port Huron, MI 48061-5015
> Office 810-989-5809
> Mobile 586-823-0204
> sc4.edu<https://www.sc4.edu/>
> Connect with us!
> Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/followSC4> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/followSC4> | Instagram<https://www.instagram.com/followSC4/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/school/st.-clair-county-community-college/> | Flickr<https://www.flickr.com/photos/followsc4/>
>
>
>
> From: L Snider < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Date: Monday, December 10, 2018 at 4:21 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Cc: Mark Rummel < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Difference between the Container tags and Structure Tag
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> Just to confirm, did you see the correct tags in the tags panel itself? It sounds like you did, but the Reading Order panel is wrong.
>
> I am curious about this, because I am finding InDesign documents on the Mac convert to span tags for paragraph and heading tags in the Reading Order tool, but they are correct in the tags panel. I am also now finding that Word files are starting to do the same in Acrobat Pro. This happens on both PC and Mac. I use fast insider of Word, so others might not be seeing this issue yet. It should be mainstream in a couple of months when they release this version to the public.
>
> I have also found recently on my Mac Word docs that Mac is not keeping the styles in when it goes to Acrobat Pro. Headings routinely come up as just paragraphs. However, this is both in the tags and reading order tool...
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 2:11 PM Philip Kiff < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
> I've seen this before and am not sure of the exact cause. I think it may
> occur when you use the Microsoft "export to PDF" engine instead of the
> Adobe Acrobat plug-in "Save as PDF" engine, but I'm not quite sure. You
> are right that you shouldn't have to edit the containers to match the
> tags after generating a PDF.
>
> There are several variables you can control when generating a PDF from
> Microsoft Word:
>
> * which PDF conversion engine (Microsoft vs Adobe Acrobat)
> * which operating system (Windows vs. Mac version of Acrobat)
> * which version of Microsoft Word
> * which version of Acrobat
> * which PDF options are selected for your export
>
> If you use the most recent versions of Acrobat DC Pro and Microsoft Word
> on Windows and use the "Save As" PDF option that becomes available after
> installing Acrobat, then you should not run into the issue you describe.
>
> You can try altering various options above to see if your output is
> different.
>
> Currently, I think that the Mac version of MS Word and of Acrobat
> Professional DC lag considerably behind their Windows counterparts. I
> would recommend against trying to generate accessible PDFs from Mac
> versions of MS Word and Acrobat.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2018-12-10 2:23 PM, Mark Rummel wrote:
>> When I convert/save a pdf from Microsoft Word, its styles are converted to structure tags and not container tags. So when I open the Reading Order panel to check the tags, all the tags are <p> because it is reading the container tags. If I go into the properties then I can see the structure tags (they match the MS styles) and the container tags. Of course I can change it there, but that seems odd that I should have to do that.
>>
>> Am I doing something wrong when converting the PDFs? I am selecting the online version instead of the print version when saving on this mac.
>>
>> Any help would be great.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Mark
>>
>> ------------------------------------------
>> Mark Rummel
>> Digital and Creative Services Coordinator
>> St. Clair County Community College
>> 323 Erie Street, P.O. Box 5015
>> Port Huron, MI 48061-5015
>> Office 810-989-5809
>> Mobile 586-823-0204
>> sc4.edu<http://sc4.edu>;<https://www.sc4.edu/>
>> Connect with us!
>> Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/followSC4> | Twitter<https://twitter.com/followSC4> | Instagram<https://www.instagram.com/followSC4/> | LinkedIn<https://www.linkedin.com/school/st.-clair-county-community-college/> | Flickr<https://www.flickr.com/photos/followsc4/>
>>
>>
>> >> >> >> > > > > > > > >