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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Colleen Gratzer
Date: Sun, Mar 05 2023 9:44AM
Subject: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
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I'm hoping to get some insight on an issue I am having.

I've got a page with a few different non-decorative icons. Some are
inside P tags and some inside a list.

They all have actual text applied, which was previously applied as
Alt-text. The Alt-text was removed.

I've confirmed in the tag properties in the PDF that there is no Alt-text.

NVDA and JAWS voice only the actual text for the icons *inside P tags*
but they read the actual text *and* previously applied Alt-text for the
icons *inside the list. *

I have renamed the files with every check in case Acrobat was caching
the file content.

I have restarted Windows. I have restarted Acrobat. I have tested this
on 2 different computers.

Again, I confirmed that there is no Alt-text set on these icons, even in
the tag properties.

I am stumped.


Colleen Gratzer
Creative Boost and Gratzer Graphics
https://creative-boost.com
https://gratzergraphics.com

From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Sun, Mar 05 2023 3:49PM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
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What's the original filetype you are working with?

I've noticed authoring tools will often plop artifacts into PDF documents that can't be detected without a deep dive into Adobe Acrobat, or the baseline PostScript for PDF ...

So many variables!

Thanks,
David

From: Colleen Gratzer
Date: Sun, Mar 05 2023 5:15PM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks for your reply, David.

The source file is InDesign. But I've looked in Acrobat and the Alt-text
is nowhere in the tag properties.



On 3/5/23 5:49 PM, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
> What's the original filetype you are working with?
>
> I've noticed authoring tools will often plop artifacts into PDF documents that can't be detected without a deep dive into Adobe Acrobat, or the baseline PostScript for PDF ...
>
> So many variables!
>
> Thanks,
> David
>
>
>
>

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Sun, Mar 05 2023 5:56PM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
← Previous message | Next message →

Mmm....that stumps me, too.

Long shot: one thing you might check is that the alternative text /
actual text you hear in NVDA and JAWS is not being picked up from the
list item's Label tag or a bullet image nested inside the Label tag (if
either exist), or from the parent tag of the P tag inside the list item
- like the LBody tag?

Phil.

On 2023-03-05 11:44, Colleen Gratzer wrote:
> I'm hoping to get some insight on an issue I am having.
>
> I've got a page with a few different non-decorative icons. Some are
> inside P tags and some inside a list.
>
> They all have actual text applied, which was previously applied as
> Alt-text. The Alt-text was removed.
>
> I've confirmed in the tag properties in the PDF that there is no
> Alt-text.
>
> NVDA and JAWS voice only the actual text for the icons *inside P tags*
> but they read the actual text *and* previously applied Alt-text for
> the icons *inside the list. *
>
> I have renamed the files with every check in case Acrobat was caching
> the file content.
>
> I have restarted Windows. I have restarted Acrobat. I have tested this
> on 2 different computers.
>
> Again, I confirmed that there is no Alt-text set on these icons, even
> in the tag properties.
>
> I am stumped.
>
>
> Colleen Gratzer
> Creative Boost and Gratzer Graphics
> https://creative-boost.com
> https://gratzergraphics.com
> > > >

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Sun, Mar 05 2023 6:00PM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
← Previous message | Next message →

Oh, one more thing. You might try checking the "Sreen Reader Preview"
output generated by PAC (PDF Accessibility Checker), and see if the text
you hear in JAWS and NVDA also appears as text in there. If it does,
then the text definitely exists somewhere in a tag that you can edit in
the tag tree.

Phil.

On 2023-03-05 19:56, Philip Kiff wrote:
> Mmm....that stumps me, too.
>
> Long shot: one thing you might check is that the alternative text /
> actual text you hear in NVDA and JAWS is not being picked up from the
> list item's Label tag or a bullet image nested inside the Label tag
> (if either exist), or from the parent tag of the P tag inside the list
> item - like the LBody tag?
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2023-03-05 11:44, Colleen Gratzer wrote:
>> I'm hoping to get some insight on an issue I am having.
>>
>> I've got a page with a few different non-decorative icons. Some are
>> inside P tags and some inside a list.
>>
>> They all have actual text applied, which was previously applied as
>> Alt-text. The Alt-text was removed.
>>
>> I've confirmed in the tag properties in the PDF that there is no
>> Alt-text.
>>
>> NVDA and JAWS voice only the actual text for the icons *inside P
>> tags* but they read the actual text *and* previously applied Alt-text
>> for the icons *inside the list. *
>>
>> I have renamed the files with every check in case Acrobat was caching
>> the file content.
>>
>> I have restarted Windows. I have restarted Acrobat. I have tested
>> this on 2 different computers.
>>
>> Again, I confirmed that there is no Alt-text set on these icons, even
>> in the tag properties.
>>
>> I am stumped.
>>
>>
>> Colleen Gratzer
>> Creative Boost and Gratzer Graphics
>> https://creative-boost.com
>> https://gratzergraphics.com
>> >> >> >> > > > >

From: Colleen Gratzer
Date: Sun, Mar 05 2023 6:39PM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
← Previous message | Next message →

Thanks, Philip. I checked that too just in case.

But I did notice that If I change the list to P tags in the PDF, then
they voice fine. Now that is even stranger!


On 3/5/23 7:56 PM, Philip Kiff wrote:
> Mmm....that stumps me, too.
>
> Long shot: one thing you might check is that the alternative text /
> actual text you hear in NVDA and JAWS is not being picked up from the
> list item's Label tag or a bullet image nested inside the Label tag (if
> either exist), or from the parent tag of the P tag inside the list item
> - like the LBody tag?
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2023-03-05 11:44, Colleen Gratzer wrote:
>> I'm hoping to get some insight on an issue I am having.
>>
>> I've got a page with a few different non-decorative icons. Some are
>> inside P tags and some inside a list.
>>
>> They all have actual text applied, which was previously applied as
>> Alt-text. The Alt-text was removed.
>>
>> I've confirmed in the tag properties in the PDF that there is no
>> Alt-text.
>>
>> NVDA and JAWS voice only the actual text for the icons *inside P tags*
>> but they read the actual text *and* previously applied Alt-text for
>> the icons *inside the list. *
>>
>> I have renamed the files with every check in case Acrobat was caching
>> the file content.
>>
>> I have restarted Windows. I have restarted Acrobat. I have tested this
>> on 2 different computers.
>>
>> Again, I confirmed that there is no Alt-text set on these icons, even
>> in the tag properties.
>>
>> I am stumped.
>>
>>
>> Colleen Gratzer
>> Creative Boost and Gratzer Graphics
>> https://creative-boost.com
>> https://gratzergraphics.com
>> >> >> >> > > > >

From: David Engebretson Jr.
Date: Sun, Mar 05 2023 7:25PM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Colleen,

Over the years I've found document authoring products like InDesign are not only inaccessible for me to design documents, as a screen reader user, but also I've found there is a propensity for those tools to output data that _may_ not be PDF compliant. Even to Acrobat.

Also, I've seen visually oriented designers struggle with design tools oriented towards outputting PDF. There are just so many inconsistencies. Sometimes the visually oriented designer will have no problem outputting to a fully WCAG compliant PDF, but sometimes one little problem will perplex them.

What I often suggest with my colleagues is to use a different authoring tool, ensure you've got the original document authoring source, don't rely on Acrobat for remediating all issues, and keep the code simple.

Embedding elements is just going to expose the (what I see as totally apparent) inability for vendors who offer PDF conversion capabilities that are consistent across all platforms. I should explain my humble opinion a little: every software vendor who provides exporting to PDF as a feature of their software should use the same library so the PDF output is consistently accessible with no dependency on the software vendor to figure it out.

I thought that's why the PDF file format definitions moved to an international organization that defines PDF... Adobe dumped the responsibilities for PDF requirements off to the international group many years ago.

InDesign, Acrobat, Microsoft products like Word, Google products, Apple products, etc. There's no consistency in the accessibility of their respective PDF output.

It does baffle me that, since InDesign and Acrobat are both products of Adobe, they don't have deep integration with each other to ensure their products work flawlessly together. I suspect it has something to do with the fact that PDF's are, at their very base, PostScript documents.

The frustration I'm expressing is from many decades of realizing PDF's aren't worth it anymore. Semantic HTML documents that are WCAG compliant are a much simpler way to deal with accessibility issues. In addition: If you need to print something at a print house for visually oriented folks to consume then send the print house an InDesign document so they can print it from that beautiful InDesign document you've spent precious time creating.

I'll quit rambling now. *smile*
David

From: Philip Kiff
Date: Mon, Mar 06 2023 6:33AM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
← Previous message | Next message →

One more long shot:

I wonder if the non-decorative icons you're working with are SVG files
originally? It is possible to include alternative text directly in the
XML code that generates the actual SVG file. Such alternative text is
optional in the file format, and so some icons may have it while others
don't. And so maybe NVDA and JAWS are actually reading the alternative
text from the file, regardless of how else the image is tagged....Seems
unlikely, but worth checking.

Phil.

On 2023-03-05 20:39, Colleen Gratzer wrote:
> Thanks, Philip. I checked that too just in case.
>
> But I did notice that If I change the list to P tags in the PDF, then
> they voice fine. Now that is even stranger!
>
>
> On 3/5/23 7:56 PM, Philip Kiff wrote:
>> Mmm....that stumps me, too.
>>
>> Long shot: one thing you might check is that the alternative text /
>> actual text you hear in NVDA and JAWS is not being picked up from the
>> list item's Label tag or a bullet image nested inside the Label tag
>> (if either exist), or from the parent tag of the P tag inside the
>> list item - like the LBody tag?
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>> On 2023-03-05 11:44, Colleen Gratzer wrote:
>>> I'm hoping to get some insight on an issue I am having.
>>>
>>> I've got a page with a few different non-decorative icons. Some are
>>> inside P tags and some inside a list.
>>>
>>> They all have actual text applied, which was previously applied as
>>> Alt-text. The Alt-text was removed.
>>>
>>> I've confirmed in the tag properties in the PDF that there is no
>>> Alt-text.
>>>
>>> NVDA and JAWS voice only the actual text for the icons *inside P
>>> tags* but they read the actual text *and* previously applied
>>> Alt-text for the icons *inside the list. *
>>>
>>> I have renamed the files with every check in case Acrobat was
>>> caching the file content.
>>>
>>> I have restarted Windows. I have restarted Acrobat. I have tested
>>> this on 2 different computers.
>>>
>>> Again, I confirmed that there is no Alt-text set on these icons,
>>> even in the tag properties.
>>>
>>> I am stumped.
>>>
>>>
>>> Colleen Gratzer
>>> Creative Boost and Gratzer Graphics
>>> https://creative-boost.com
>>> https://gratzergraphics.com
>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > >

From: Colleen Gratzer
Date: Mon, Mar 06 2023 6:52AM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
← Previous message | Next message →

These are Adobe Illustrator files imported into InDesign.


On 3/6/23 8:33 AM, Philip Kiff wrote:
> One more long shot:
>
> I wonder if the non-decorative icons you're working with are SVG files
> originally? It is possible to include alternative text directly in the
> XML code that generates the actual SVG file. Such alternative text is
> optional in the file format, and so some icons may have it while others
> don't. And so maybe NVDA and JAWS are actually reading the alternative
> text from the file, regardless of how else the image is tagged....Seems
> unlikely, but worth checking.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2023-03-05 20:39, Colleen Gratzer wrote:
>> Thanks, Philip. I checked that too just in case.
>>
>> But I did notice that If I change the list to P tags in the PDF, then
>> they voice fine. Now that is even stranger!
>>
>>
>> On 3/5/23 7:56 PM, Philip Kiff wrote:
>>> Mmm....that stumps me, too.
>>>
>>> Long shot: one thing you might check is that the alternative text /
>>> actual text you hear in NVDA and JAWS is not being picked up from the
>>> list item's Label tag or a bullet image nested inside the Label tag
>>> (if either exist), or from the parent tag of the P tag inside the
>>> list item - like the LBody tag?
>>>
>>> Phil.
>>>
>>> On 2023-03-05 11:44, Colleen Gratzer wrote:
>>>> I'm hoping to get some insight on an issue I am having.
>>>>
>>>> I've got a page with a few different non-decorative icons. Some are
>>>> inside P tags and some inside a list.
>>>>
>>>> They all have actual text applied, which was previously applied as
>>>> Alt-text. The Alt-text was removed.
>>>>
>>>> I've confirmed in the tag properties in the PDF that there is no
>>>> Alt-text.
>>>>
>>>> NVDA and JAWS voice only the actual text for the icons *inside P
>>>> tags* but they read the actual text *and* previously applied
>>>> Alt-text for the icons *inside the list. *
>>>>
>>>> I have renamed the files with every check in case Acrobat was
>>>> caching the file content.
>>>>
>>>> I have restarted Windows. I have restarted Acrobat. I have tested
>>>> this on 2 different computers.
>>>>
>>>> Again, I confirmed that there is no Alt-text set on these icons,
>>>> even in the tag properties.
>>>>
>>>> I am stumped.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Colleen Gratzer
>>>> Creative Boost and Gratzer Graphics
>>>> https://creative-boost.com
>>>> https://gratzergraphics.com
>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > >

From: chagnon
Date: Mon, Mar 06 2023 9:15AM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
← Previous message | Next message →

Colleen, just checking to make sure I understand the situation.
The icon graphics are made in Adobe Illustrator and then used as bullets and as anchored graphics in paragraphs in the InDesign layout, correct?

Questions:
1. What file format is being used to bring them into the InDesign layout?
2. Is the graphic icon file flattened? And does it contain only the icon image, not anything else?
3. At what stage in the workflow is the Alt Text and Actual Text being added to the icon: in Illustrator or InDesign?
4. Since InDesign doesn't allow us to use graphics as bullets, how did you get your icons to become bullets?

You have 5 stakeholders in this scenario: Illustrator and how it encodes a file; InDesign and how it encodes a PDF when exported; Acrobat and how it processes the content in the PDF; and 2 screen readers, NVDA and JAWS, and how they process/render the file.

—Bevi
— — —
Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —
Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text

From: Colleen Gratzer
Date: Mon, Mar 06 2023 9:38AM
Subject: Re: Non-existent Alt-text voiced in PDF
← Previous message | No next message

Hi, Bevi.

The icons are Illustrator format (.ai). They are non-decorative and
include text (icons in place of text to depict file formats).

The actual text was added in InDesign.

In the PDF, if they are inside a P tag, only the actual text is voiced,
as should be the case. If they are inside a list tag, the actual and
Alt-text get voiced.

I just realized maybe they are not voicing Alt-text as well, but the
text inside the image as well. So I checked the icons and converted the
text to outlines.

Regardless, it doesn't make sense why the same icons were voicing one
way inside a P tag and another inside a list tag.

But now the figures that were inside the P voice with the word "graphic"
and the actual text (as if they had Alt-text), and the ones in the list
voice just with the actual text, as expected.

<shrug>

Colleen


On 3/6/23 11:15 AM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
> Colleen, just checking to make sure I understand the situation.
> The icon graphics are made in Adobe Illustrator and then used as bullets and as anchored graphics in paragraphs in the InDesign layout, correct?
>
> Questions:
> 1. What file format is being used to bring them into the InDesign layout?
> 2. Is the graphic icon file flattened? And does it contain only the icon image, not anything else?
> 3. At what stage in the workflow is the Alt Text and Actual Text being added to the icon: in Illustrator or InDesign?
> 4. Since InDesign doesn't allow us to use graphics as bullets, how did you get your icons to become bullets?
>
> You have 5 stakeholders in this scenario: Illustrator and how it encodes a file; InDesign and how it encodes a PDF when exported; Acrobat and how it processes the content in the PDF; and 2 screen readers, NVDA and JAWS, and how they process/render the file.
>
> —Bevi
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon | Designer, Accessibility Technician | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> — — —
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting • training • development • design • sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
> — — —
> Latest blog-newsletter – Simple Guide to Writing Alt-Text
>
>