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Thread: landmarks in landmarks

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Number of posts in this thread: 11 (In chronological order)

From: Jacek Zadrożny
Date: Wed, Dec 11 2013 7:01AM
Subject: landmarks in landmarks
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Hi,
Somebody asked me a question I can't answer. There is a site using
landmarks: banner, navigation, main and content-info. Content-info is
used for footer information: copyright, accessibility statement,
contacts, cookies and so on. Bu inside footer there is a navigation
menu. How to usr landmarks properly?
1. All footer content, including navigation menu, is content-info?
2. Maybe navigation inside content-info:
<div role="content-info">
...
<div role="navigation">
...
</div>
...
</div>
3. Or two content-info areas:
<div role="content-info">
...
</div>
<div role="navigation="navigation">
...
</div>
<div role="content-info">
...
</div>

Last solution is wrong for me, because there should be only one
content-info area on the page. I'm not sure if I can embed landmark area
in another landmark area. Can anybody help me?

Best regards
--
Jacek Zadrożny
http://informaton.pl
[AAA} All About Accessibility

From: Gunderson, Jon R
Date: Wed, Dec 11 2013 7:20AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
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Here are the general rules I use:

1. One MAIN landmark per page
2. One BANNER landmark per page (e.g. typically information at the top of the all pages in the website)
3. One CONTENTINFO landmark per page (e.g. typically information at the bottom of all pages in the website)
3. Site navigation links should be in NAVIGATION landmarks (so one maybe more depending on the number of list of links) Typically not nested in other landmarks.
4. Do not nest landmarks of the same type (i.e. do not create another NAVIGATION landmark that inside a NAVIGATION landmark)

See:
http://www.disability.illinois.edu/

Some slides on landmarks from a presentation I gave:
http://presentations.cita.illinois.edu/2013-04-15-web-conference/slide15.html


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jacek Zadrozny
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:02 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] landmarks in landmarks

Hi,
Somebody asked me a question I can't answer. There is a site using
landmarks: banner, navigation, main and content-info. Content-info is used for footer information: copyright, accessibility statement, contacts, cookies and so on. Bu inside footer there is a navigation menu. How to usr landmarks properly?
1. All footer content, including navigation menu, is content-info?
2. Maybe navigation inside content-info:
<div role="content-info">
...
<div role="navigation">
...
</div>
...
</div>
3. Or two content-info areas:
<div role="content-info">
...
</div>
<div role="navigation="navigation">
...
</div>
<div role="content-info">
...
</div>

Last solution is wrong for me, because there should be only one content-info area on the page. I'm not sure if I can embed landmark area in another landmark area. Can anybody help me?

Best regards
--
Jacek Zadrożny
http://informaton.pl
[AAA} All About Accessibility

From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, Dec 11 2013 9:32AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
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It is OK to embed landmark roles within other landmark roles. However,
I think it is assumed that the contentinfo landmark will contain links
about the site, copyright, etc. While the ARIA specification does not
state this, the HTML5 spec does clarify that <footer> (which maps to
the contentinfo role - see
http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2013/why-does-html-take-rolecontentinfo/)
should not include <nav> (which maps to the navigation role) for such
links.

I also don't think of such links as "navigation" in the strictest
sense. I would probably drop the navigation landmark from within the
contentinfo landmark/footer.

Jared

From: Jacek Zadrożny
Date: Thu, Dec 12 2013 2:05AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
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Thanks so much. But I have more questions. I read an article and I think
it's tru. But what about mixing HTML structural elements and landmarks?
OK. So if there is an footer element of HTML5 it means that using ARIA
role "content-info" is wrong? For me landmarks are for blind users to
quickly navigate to navigation, main content or footer. Most of
screenreaders have no navigation mechanism using HTML5 structural
elements, but using landmarks. So what is good solution? Is it invalid:
<footer aria-role="content-info">?
Jacek

W dniu 2013-12-11 17:32, Jared Smith pisze:
> It is OK to embed landmark roles within other landmark roles. However,
> I think it is assumed that the contentinfo landmark will contain links
> about the site, copyright, etc. While the ARIA specification does not
> state this, the HTML5 spec does clarify that <footer> (which maps to
> the contentinfo role - see
> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2013/why-does-html-take-rolecontentinfo/)
> should not include <nav> (which maps to the navigation role) for such
> links.
>
> I also don't think of such links as "navigation" in the strictest
> sense. I would probably drop the navigation landmark from within the
> contentinfo landmark/footer.
>
> Jared
> > > --
Jacek Zadrożny
http://informaton.pl
[AAA} All About Accessibility

From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Dec 12 2013 8:54AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
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Jacek Zadrożny wrote:
> But what about mixing HTML structural elements and landmarks?

Yes, this is just fine - and is probably best practice until there is
better screen reader support for the native HTML5 structural elements.
Just be sure to match the correct roles to the native elements (e.g,
<nav role="navigation">, <header role="banner", etc.).

> So if there is an footer element of HTML5 it means that using ARIA
> role "content-info" is wrong?

Yes, but only because it should be "contentinfo", not "content-info".
<footer role="contentinfo"> is perfectly fine.

Jared

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Dec 12 2013 9:01AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
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Hi Jared,

Yes, this is just fine - and is probably best practice until there is
> better screen reader support for the native HTML5 structural elements.
>

better browser support for the mapping of landmarks to native elements. In
browsers that do so then screen readers work fine with them.

For example Firefox supports the correct mapping, while IE does not
https://rawgithub.com/stevefaulkner/HTML5accessibility/master/index.html

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;


On 12 December 2013 15:54, Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Jacek Zadrożny wrote:
> > But what about mixing HTML structural elements and landmarks?
>
> Yes, this is just fine - and is probably best practice until there is
> better screen reader support for the native HTML5 structural elements.
> Just be sure to match the correct roles to the native elements (e.g,
> <nav role="navigation">, <header role="banner", etc.).
>
> > So if there is an footer element of HTML5 it means that using ARIA
> > role "content-info" is wrong?
>
> Yes, but only because it should be "contentinfo", not "content-info".
> <footer role="contentinfo"> is perfectly fine.
>
> Jared
> > > >

From: Jacek Zadrożny
Date: Thu, Dec 12 2013 10:01AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
← Previous message | Next message →

W dniu 2013-12-12 16:54, Jared Smith pisze:
> Jacek Zadrożny wrote:
>> But what about mixing HTML structural elements and landmarks?
> Yes, this is just fine - and is probably best practice until there is
> better screen reader support for the native HTML5 structural elements.
> Just be sure to match the correct roles to the native elements (e.g,
> <nav role="navigation">, <header role="banner", etc.).
>
>> So if there is an footer element of HTML5 it means that using ARIA
>> role "content-info" is wrong?
> Yes, but only because it should be "contentinfo", not "content-info".
> <footer role="contentinfo"> is perfectly fine.
JZ: You are absolutely right... My mistake:)
Thanks for everybody
Jacek

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, Dec 12 2013 11:20AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
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Actually screen readers do jump to html5 regions the same way we move to
aria land marks. The newest version of jaws has at long last given us the
ability to jump to a main content landmark but I have not done enough
testing yet to see if it uses the html 5 equivalent yet. Not I want to
remind you that if you do mark up using both html 5 and aria on the same
markup it will say something like navigation region nave region on witch
does become to verbos. As a user I hait seeing to many navagation regons in
a page because they offen are not nav type elaments and it just gets far to
confusing wqitch nave regon do I want the first the second or the bottom one
or the nested one.

Lucia Greco,
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jacek Zadrozny
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:05 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] landmarks in landmarks

Thanks so much. But I have more questions. I read an article and I think
it's tru. But what about mixing HTML structural elements and landmarks?
OK. So if there is an footer element of HTML5 it means that using ARIA role
"content-info" is wrong? For me landmarks are for blind users to quickly
navigate to navigation, main content or footer. Most of screenreaders have
no navigation mechanism using HTML5 structural elements, but using
landmarks. So what is good solution? Is it invalid:
<footer aria-role="content-info">?
Jacek

W dniu 2013-12-11 17:32, Jared Smith pisze:
> It is OK to embed landmark roles within other landmark roles. However,
> I think it is assumed that the contentinfo landmark will contain links
> about the site, copyright, etc. While the ARIA specification does not
> state this, the HTML5 spec does clarify that <footer> (which maps to
> the contentinfo role - see
> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2013/why-does-html-take-rolecontentinfo/)
> should not include <nav> (which maps to the navigation role) for such
> links.
>
> I also don't think of such links as "navigation" in the strictest
> sense. I would probably drop the navigation landmark from within the
> contentinfo landmark/footer.
>
> Jared
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =


--
Jacek Zadrożny
http://informaton.pl
[AAA} All About Accessibility

messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Thu, Dec 12 2013 11:23AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Lucy,

you wrote:

"want to remind you that if you do mark up using both html 5 and aria on
the same
markup it will say something like navigation region nave region on witch
does become to verbos."

that should not be the case, do you have an example of a page where this
occurs (and using what browser and AT)?.

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;


On 12 December 2013 18:20, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Actually screen readers do jump to html5 regions the same way we move to
> aria land marks. The newest version of jaws has at long last given us the
> ability to jump to a main content landmark but I have not done enough
> testing yet to see if it uses the html 5 equivalent yet. Not I want to
> remind you that if you do mark up using both html 5 and aria on the same
> markup it will say something like navigation region nave region on witch
> does become to verbos. As a user I hait seeing to many navagation regons in
> a page because they offen are not nav type elaments and it just gets far to
> confusing wqitch nave regon do I want the first the second or the bottom
> one
> or the nested one.
>
> Lucia Greco,
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jacek Zadrozny
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:05 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] landmarks in landmarks
>
> Thanks so much. But I have more questions. I read an article and I think
> it's tru. But what about mixing HTML structural elements and landmarks?
> OK. So if there is an footer element of HTML5 it means that using ARIA role
> "content-info" is wrong? For me landmarks are for blind users to quickly
> navigate to navigation, main content or footer. Most of screenreaders have
> no navigation mechanism using HTML5 structural elements, but using
> landmarks. So what is good solution? Is it invalid:
> <footer aria-role="content-info">?
> Jacek
>
> W dniu 2013-12-11 17:32, Jared Smith pisze:
> > It is OK to embed landmark roles within other landmark roles. However,
> > I think it is assumed that the contentinfo landmark will contain links
> > about the site, copyright, etc. While the ARIA specification does not
> > state this, the HTML5 spec does clarify that <footer> (which maps to
> > the contentinfo role - see
> > http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2013/why-does-html-take-rolecontentinfo/)
> > should not include <nav> (which maps to the navigation role) for such
> > links.
> >
> > I also don't think of such links as "navigation" in the strictest
> > sense. I would probably drop the navigation landmark from within the
> > contentinfo landmark/footer.
> >
> > Jared
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
> --
> Jacek Zadrożny
> http://informaton.pl
> [AAA} All About Accessibility
>
> > > messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > >

From: Lucy Greco
Date: Thu, Dec 12 2013 11:28AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
← Previous message | Next message →

Not off hand but I have seen it and it does get to be a pain. So when I see
it in testing I have the coder remove one or the other usually the html 5 as
it is more brief and the aria speaks the full text

Lucia Greco
Web Access Analyst
IST-Campus Technology Services
University of California, Berkeley
(510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
http://webaccess.berkeley.edu


-----Original Message-----
From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
[mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Steve Faulkner
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:24 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] landmarks in landmarks

Hi Lucy,

you wrote:

"want to remind you that if you do mark up using both html 5 and aria on the
same markup it will say something like navigation region nave region on
witch does become to verbos."

that should not be the case, do you have an example of a page where this
occurs (and using what browser and AT)?.

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;


On 12 December 2013 18:20, Lucy Greco < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> Actually screen readers do jump to html5 regions the same way we move
> to aria land marks. The newest version of jaws has at long last given
> us the ability to jump to a main content landmark but I have not done
> enough testing yet to see if it uses the html 5 equivalent yet. Not I
> want to remind you that if you do mark up using both html 5 and aria
> on the same markup it will say something like navigation region nave
> region on witch does become to verbos. As a user I hait seeing to many
> navagation regons in a page because they offen are not nav type
> elaments and it just gets far to confusing wqitch nave regon do I want
> the first the second or the bottom one or the nested one.
>
> Lucia Greco,
> Web Access Analyst
> IST-Campus Technology Services
> University of California, Berkeley
> (510) 289-6008 skype: lucia1-greco
> http://webaccess.berkeley.edu
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jacek
> Zadrozny
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:05 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] landmarks in landmarks
>
> Thanks so much. But I have more questions. I read an article and I
> think it's tru. But what about mixing HTML structural elements and
> landmarks?
> OK. So if there is an footer element of HTML5 it means that using ARIA
> role "content-info" is wrong? For me landmarks are for blind users to
> quickly navigate to navigation, main content or footer. Most of
> screenreaders have no navigation mechanism using HTML5 structural
> elements, but using landmarks. So what is good solution? Is it invalid:
> <footer aria-role="content-info">?
> Jacek
>
> W dniu 2013-12-11 17:32, Jared Smith pisze:
> > It is OK to embed landmark roles within other landmark roles.
> > However, I think it is assumed that the contentinfo landmark will
> > contain links about the site, copyright, etc. While the ARIA
> > specification does not state this, the HTML5 spec does clarify that
> > <footer> (which maps to the contentinfo role - see
> > http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2013/why-does-html-take-rolecontentinfo
> > /) should not include <nav> (which maps to the navigation role) for
> > such links.
> >
> > I also don't think of such links as "navigation" in the strictest
> > sense. I would probably drop the navigation landmark from within the
> > contentinfo landmark/footer.
> >
> > Jared
> > > > > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
> --
> Jacek Zadrożny
> http://informaton.pl
> [AAA} All About Accessibility
>
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> > > list messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
messages to = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Jared Smith
Date: Thu, Dec 12 2013 11:32AM
Subject: Re: landmarks in landmarks
← Previous message | No next message

Lucy Greco wrote:
> if you do mark up using both html 5 and aria on the same
> markup it will say something like navigation region nave region on witch
> does become to verbos.

This will (or at least should) only occur if the landmark role is not
on the HTML5 native element, such as...
<div role="navigation">
<nav>
...
</nav
</div>

This should instead be just...
<nav role="navigation">
...
</nav>

An element can only have one role and that role cannot be duplicated.
If JAWS is indicating this information twice for the same element,
then it's surely a bug.

Or it might be a case of the author providing an unnecessary label to
the navigation region which is causing some duplication of
information.

Jared