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Thread: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

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Number of posts in this thread: 25 (In chronological order)

From: Elizabeth Pyatt
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 9:29AM
Subject: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
No previous message | Next message →

Hello:

Some of our screen reader testers have told me that they now prefer scanning ARIA Landmarks and headings over the traditional skip navigation link. I think this is great news for ARIA and for developers, but I was wondering if it interfered with usability for sighted keyboard users.

Are there tools that allow a sighted keyboard user to access and navigate between ARIA landmarks and headings?

Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks
Elizabeth

Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Co-Chair Accessibility Technology and Information Committee

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://accessibility.psu.edu

From: Jim Homme
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 9:54AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,
We recommend that clients keep the skip link that goes directly to the top of the content, because people who use the keyboard with no assistive technology and who cannot use a mouse need that feature to get directly to the content. Further, we feel that it's possible to have too many links that skip to various places. Having them increases the number of times keyboard-only users need to tab, which sort of defeats the purpose of giving them a more usable experience.

Thanks.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Pyatt
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:30 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Hello:

Some of our screen reader testers have told me that they now prefer scanning ARIA Landmarks and headings over the traditional skip navigation link. I think this is great news for ARIA and for developers, but I was wondering if it interfered with usability for sighted keyboard users.

Are there tools that allow a sighted keyboard user to access and navigate between ARIA landmarks and headings?

Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks
Elizabeth

Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Co-Chair Accessibility Technology and Information Committee

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://accessibility.psu.edu

From: Jamous, JP
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 10:05AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

I agree with Jim.

We fail any page that does not have at least skip links to jump over headers or large blocks of content.

Just keep in mind that some of your screen reader users could have multiple disabilities. I have met someone that was blind, deaf and in a wheelchair at a rehab center 21 years ago.

She used a Braille display to read the content and a special keyboard to navigate that had large buttons.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jim Homme
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Hi,
We recommend that clients keep the skip link that goes directly to the top of the content, because people who use the keyboard with no assistive technology and who cannot use a mouse need that feature to get directly to the content. Further, we feel that it's possible to have too many links that skip to various places. Having them increases the number of times keyboard-only users need to tab, which sort of defeats the purpose of giving them a more usable experience.

Thanks.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Pyatt
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:30 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Hello:

Some of our screen reader testers have told me that they now prefer scanning ARIA Landmarks and headings over the traditional skip navigation link. I think this is great news for ARIA and for developers, but I was wondering if it interfered with usability for sighted keyboard users.

Are there tools that allow a sighted keyboard user to access and navigate between ARIA landmarks and headings?

Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks
Elizabeth

Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Co-Chair Accessibility Technology and Information Committee

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://accessibility.psu.edu

From: Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 10:08AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Another thing to keep in mind with the skip link is that it needs to be visible when it has focus. Invisible skip links leave the sighted keyboard user with wtf am I syndrome.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission
Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jamous, JP
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:05 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

I agree with Jim.

We fail any page that does not have at least skip links to jump over headers or large blocks of content.

Just keep in mind that some of your screen reader users could have multiple disabilities. I have met someone that was blind, deaf and in a wheelchair at a rehab center 21 years ago.

She used a Braille display to read the content and a special keyboard to navigate that had large buttons.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jim Homme
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Hi,
We recommend that clients keep the skip link that goes directly to the top of the content, because people who use the keyboard with no assistive technology and who cannot use a mouse need that feature to get directly to the content. Further, we feel that it's possible to have too many links that skip to various places. Having them increases the number of times keyboard-only users need to tab, which sort of defeats the purpose of giving them a more usable experience.

Thanks.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Pyatt
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:30 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Hello:

Some of our screen reader testers have told me that they now prefer scanning ARIA Landmarks and headings over the traditional skip navigation link. I think this is great news for ARIA and for developers, but I was wondering if it interfered with usability for sighted keyboard users.

Are there tools that allow a sighted keyboard user to access and navigate between ARIA landmarks and headings?

Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks
Elizabeth

Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Co-Chair Accessibility Technology and Information Committee

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://accessibility.psu.edu

From: Jared Smith
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 10:35AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

I've been saying for years that the single most significant thing that
could happen to improve accessibility for all users is for standard
browsers to support navigation by landmarks and headings.

I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts to
get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think it's
gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack of
"skip" links could finally go away.

Jared

From: Jim Homme
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 11:14AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,
Not only that, but invisible skip links violate SC2.4.7.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Moore,Michael (Accessibility) (HHSC)
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 12:09 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Another thing to keep in mind with the skip link is that it needs to be visible when it has focus. Invisible skip links leave the sighted keyboard user with wtf am I syndrome.

Mike Moore
Accessibility Coordinator
Texas Health and Human Services Commission Civil Rights Office
(512) 438-3431 (Office)

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jamous, JP
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:05 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

I agree with Jim.

We fail any page that does not have at least skip links to jump over headers or large blocks of content.

Just keep in mind that some of your screen reader users could have multiple disabilities. I have met someone that was blind, deaf and in a wheelchair at a rehab center 21 years ago.

She used a Braille display to read the content and a special keyboard to navigate that had large buttons.
-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jim Homme
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:55 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Hi,
We recommend that clients keep the skip link that goes directly to the top of the content, because people who use the keyboard with no assistive technology and who cannot use a mouse need that feature to get directly to the content. Further, we feel that it's possible to have too many links that skip to various places. Having them increases the number of times keyboard-only users need to tab, which sort of defeats the purpose of giving them a more usable experience.

Thanks.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Pyatt
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 11:30 AM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Hello:

Some of our screen reader testers have told me that they now prefer scanning ARIA Landmarks and headings over the traditional skip navigation link. I think this is great news for ARIA and for developers, but I was wondering if it interfered with usability for sighted keyboard users.

Are there tools that allow a sighted keyboard user to access and navigate between ARIA landmarks and headings?

Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks
Elizabeth

Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Co-Chair Accessibility Technology and Information Committee

= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://accessibility.psu.edu

From: Jim Homme
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 11:25AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jared,
That's if you could ever get developers to standardize how they code landmarks.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jared Smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 12:36 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

I've been saying for years that the single most significant thing that could happen to improve accessibility for all users is for standard browsers to support navigation by landmarks and headings.

I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts to get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think it's gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack of "skip" links could finally go away.

Jared

From: Elizabeth Pyatt
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 11:40AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

I do see the logic of keeping the Skip Link for sighted users, but totally agree with Jared Smith that browsers should have these two options available for sighted users.
As a sighted user, skipping from heading to heading is my favorite feature of a screen reader.


> On Aug 10, 2016, at 12:29 PM, = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = wrote:
>
> From: Jared Smith < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
> Date: August 10, 2016 at 12:35:55 PM EDT
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
>
> I've been saying for years that the single most significant thing that
> could happen to improve accessibility for all users is for standard
> browsers to support navigation by landmarks and headings.
>
> I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts to
> get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think it's
> gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack of
> "skip" links could finally go away.
>
> Jared

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
Instructional Designer
Teaching and Learning with Technology
Penn State University
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = , (814) 865-0805 or (814) 865-2030 (Main Office)

3A Shields Building
University Park, PA 16802
http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/psu
http://tlt.psu.edu

From: Jennifer Sutton
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 11:47AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Since we have been having this discussion here on WebAIM, for many years
now ...


And as far as I know, browser vendors don't read this list . . .


What can be done to productively advocate for this change to have
browser vendors include methods for navigating by headings and
landmarks, for all users?


Have there been bugs filed against all browsers, for example, so that
people who follow such things more closely than I do could post such
links, and people who want to can comment on the bugs/vote them up, or
whatever where browser vendors will see?


For example, what about Edge, since Microsoft seems to be being so
visible with its accessibility efforts, of late?


As far as I can tell, repeating ourselves here on the list is not helping.


Jennifer

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 12:00PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

There are a couple of things going on here:
1. If we ask this question from a WCAG compliance perspective, any one
of a skip link, headings, or landmarks is enough to pass SC 2.4.1,
bypass blocks.
So you cannot fail someone for lack of WCAG compliance unless their
page is missing all 3.
Of course what we want is not compliant content, but awesome content,
and often we work with or for people who share our passion.

2. It is not that hard to get developers to implement the banner, main
and contentinfo landmarks correctly any more. It is getting easier
because people are beginning to use the HTML5 <header> <main> and
<footer> elements correctly (when direct discendants of the <body>
element, these are mapped to the correct ARIA roles by the browser).
If I had to choose to recommend implementing just one correctly, it
would be the <main> landmark. All the developer has to do is to add
role="main" to the container element that is also the target of the
"skip to main" link.
So I try to get developers to implement a skip link and landmarks
together, and I use headings from the context of 1.3.1, because
headings are tied to the page content, skip links and landmarks are
tied to the page structure.

But, yes, sadly, browser vendors have so far failed to do their part
to ttranslateARIA landmarks into something useful.
There are browser add-ons that people can install and enable them to
navigate by landmarks, but often people work in corporate environments
that are locked down and browser add-ons are not available, plus this
really should be a core function of the browser.
The beauty of landmarks over headings is that, at least when we are
discussing the main 3, they are predictable and consistent. Headings
can be used in so many different ways that using them for navigating
can end up causing confusion.
Let's push back on the browser vendors.
Skip links are still valuable, especially when the page has a large
header that is not implemented as a menu structure or expand/collapse
sections.
PayPal created a skip to widget that is a listbox of links with a "go"
button if you want to add many skip links using only two tab stops. It
is a cool idea, but if you find that is necessary for your page you
may want to consider using other widgets to categorize and simplify
the page.
Cheers
-B





On 8/10/16, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Since we have been having this discussion here on WebAIM, for many years
> now ...
>
>
> And as far as I know, browser vendors don't read this list . . .
>
>
> What can be done to productively advocate for this change to have
> browser vendors include methods for navigating by headings and
> landmarks, for all users?
>
>
> Have there been bugs filed against all browsers, for example, so that
> people who follow such things more closely than I do could post such
> links, and people who want to can comment on the bugs/vote them up, or
> whatever where browser vendors will see?
>
>
> For example, what about Edge, since Microsoft seems to be being so
> visible with its accessibility efforts, of late?
>
>
> As far as I can tell, repeating ourselves here on the list is not helping.
>
>
> Jennifer
>
>
>
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Marc Solomon
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 12:14PM
Subject: Re: Bypass blocks wasSkip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Birkir,
If you get a chance, I would like to better understand your explanation of SC 2.4.1. Here is my take. Since a sighted user who relies on the keyboard can't currently use landmarks or headings to bypass, I would think that a page lacking visible skip to links fails SC 2.4.1 even if it has headings and landmarks.
Thanks,
Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 2:00 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

There are a couple of things going on here:
1. If we ask this question from a WCAG compliance perspective, any one of a skip link, headings, or landmarks is enough to pass SC 2.4.1, bypass blocks.
So you cannot fail someone for lack of WCAG compliance unless their page is missing all 3.
Of course what we want is not compliant content, but awesome content, and often we work with or for people who share our passion.

2. It is not that hard to get developers to implement the banner, main and contentinfo landmarks correctly any more. It is getting easier because people are beginning to use the HTML5 <header> <main> and <footer> elements correctly (when direct discendants of the <body> element, these are mapped to the correct ARIA roles by the browser).
If I had to choose to recommend implementing just one correctly, it would be the <main> landmark. All the developer has to do is to add role="main" to the container element that is also the target of the "skip to main" link.
So I try to get developers to implement a skip link and landmarks together, and I use headings from the context of 1.3.1, because headings are tied to the page content, skip links and landmarks are tied to the page structure.

But, yes, sadly, browser vendors have so far failed to do their part to ttranslateARIA landmarks into something useful.
There are browser add-ons that people can install and enable them to navigate by landmarks, but often people work in corporate environments that are locked down and browser add-ons are not available, plus this really should be a core function of the browser.
The beauty of landmarks over headings is that, at least when we are discussing the main 3, they are predictable and consistent. Headings can be used in so many different ways that using them for navigating can end up causing confusion.
Let's push back on the browser vendors.
Skip links are still valuable, especially when the page has a large header that is not implemented as a menu structure or expand/collapse sections.
PayPal created a skip to widget that is a listbox of links with a "go"
button if you want to add many skip links using only two tab stops. It is a cool idea, but if you find that is necessary for your page you may want to consider using other widgets to categorize and simplify the page.
Cheers
-B





On 8/10/16, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Since we have been having this discussion here on WebAIM, for many
> years now ...
>
>
> And as far as I know, browser vendors don't read this list . . .
>
>
> What can be done to productively advocate for this change to have
> browser vendors include methods for navigating by headings and
> landmarks, for all users?
>
>
> Have there been bugs filed against all browsers, for example, so that
> people who follow such things more closely than I do could post such
> links, and people who want to can comment on the bugs/vote them up, or
> whatever where browser vendors will see?
>
>
> For example, what about Edge, since Microsoft seems to be being so
> visible with its accessibility efforts, of late?
>
>
> As far as I can tell, repeating ourselves here on the list is not helping.
>
>
> Jennifer
>
>
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 12:22PM
Subject: Re: Bypass blocks wasSkip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

> 1. If we ask this question from a WCAG compliance perspective, any one of a skip link, headings, or landmarks is enough to pass SC 2.4.1, bypass blocks.

Only if it is accessibility supported can you rely on those headings and landmarks. Some people have argued that a user could create a bookmark with the PayPal skipTo script to add keyboard access to headings on the page https://github.com/paypal/skipto -- but I think that's a difficult argument to make and without a skip link it's hard to make sure the user will have technology that supports keyboard access to headings and landmarks.

As an author if you put the PayPal script on your site then it would allow you to meet that requirement.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 (Office)
Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | Linkedin | Blog
Check out our Digital Accessibility Webinars!

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Marc Solomon
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 2:15 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Bypass blocks was RE: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Birkir,
If you get a chance, I would like to better understand your explanation of SC 2.4.1. Here is my take. Since a sighted user who relies on the keyboard can't currently use landmarks or headings to bypass, I would think that a page lacking visible skip to links fails SC 2.4.1 even if it has headings and landmarks.
Thanks,
Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 2:00 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

There are a couple of things going on here:
1. If we ask this question from a WCAG compliance perspective, any one of a skip link, headings, or landmarks is enough to pass SC 2.4.1, bypass blocks.
So you cannot fail someone for lack of WCAG compliance unless their page is missing all 3.
Of course what we want is not compliant content, but awesome content, and often we work with or for people who share our passion.

2. It is not that hard to get developers to implement the banner, main and contentinfo landmarks correctly any more. It is getting easier because people are beginning to use the HTML5 <header> <main> and <footer> elements correctly (when direct discendants of the <body> element, these are mapped to the correct ARIA roles by the browser).
If I had to choose to recommend implementing just one correctly, it would be the <main> landmark. All the developer has to do is to add role="main" to the container element that is also the target of the "skip to main" link.
So I try to get developers to implement a skip link and landmarks together, and I use headings from the context of 1.3.1, because headings are tied to the page content, skip links and landmarks are tied to the page structure.

But, yes, sadly, browser vendors have so far failed to do their part to ttranslateARIA landmarks into something useful.
There are browser add-ons that people can install and enable them to navigate by landmarks, but often people work in corporate environments that are locked down and browser add-ons are not available, plus this really should be a core function of the browser.
The beauty of landmarks over headings is that, at least when we are discussing the main 3, they are predictable and consistent. Headings can be used in so many different ways that using them for navigating can end up causing confusion.
Let's push back on the browser vendors.
Skip links are still valuable, especially when the page has a large header that is not implemented as a menu structure or expand/collapse sections.
PayPal created a skip to widget that is a listbox of links with a "go"
button if you want to add many skip links using only two tab stops. It is a cool idea, but if you find that is necessary for your page you may want to consider using other widgets to categorize and simplify the page.
Cheers
-B





On 8/10/16, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Since we have been having this discussion here on WebAIM, for many
> years now ...
>
>
> And as far as I know, browser vendors don't read this list . . .
>
>
> What can be done to productively advocate for this change to have
> browser vendors include methods for navigating by headings and
> landmarks, for all users?
>
>
> Have there been bugs filed against all browsers, for example, so that
> people who follow such things more closely than I do could post such
> links, and people who want to can comment on the bugs/vote them up, or
> whatever where browser vendors will see?
>
>
> For example, what about Edge, since Microsoft seems to be being so
> visible with its accessibility efforts, of late?
>
>
> As far as I can tell, repeating ourselves here on the list is not helping.
>
>
> Jennifer
>
>
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jim Homme
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 12:38PM
Subject: Re: Bypass blocks wasSkip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jonathan,
I agree with your interpretation, strictly speaking, of the 2.4.3 criterion. We like people to use skip links because real people have to use the sites we assess. Passing the letter of the success criteria is one thing. Giving people a good experience is another. In this case, it would be like us saying "It passes. Too bad for you." I'm exaggerating to make a point, here.

Thanks.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 2:23 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Bypass blocks was RE: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

> 1. If we ask this question from a WCAG compliance perspective, any one of a skip link, headings, or landmarks is enough to pass SC 2.4.1, bypass blocks.

Only if it is accessibility supported can you rely on those headings and landmarks. Some people have argued that a user could create a bookmark with the PayPal skipTo script to add keyboard access to headings on the page https://github.com/paypal/skipto -- but I think that's a difficult argument to make and without a skip link it's hard to make sure the user will have technology that supports keyboard access to headings and landmarks.

As an author if you put the PayPal script on your site then it would allow you to meet that requirement.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 (Office)
Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | Linkedin | Blog Check out our Digital Accessibility Webinars!

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Marc Solomon
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 2:15 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: [WebAIM] Bypass blocks was RE: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Birkir,
If you get a chance, I would like to better understand your explanation of SC 2.4.1. Here is my take. Since a sighted user who relies on the keyboard can't currently use landmarks or headings to bypass, I would think that a page lacking visible skip to links fails SC 2.4.1 even if it has headings and landmarks.
Thanks,
Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 2:00 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

There are a couple of things going on here:
1. If we ask this question from a WCAG compliance perspective, any one of a skip link, headings, or landmarks is enough to pass SC 2.4.1, bypass blocks.
So you cannot fail someone for lack of WCAG compliance unless their page is missing all 3.
Of course what we want is not compliant content, but awesome content, and often we work with or for people who share our passion.

2. It is not that hard to get developers to implement the banner, main and contentinfo landmarks correctly any more. It is getting easier because people are beginning to use the HTML5 <header> <main> and <footer> elements correctly (when direct discendants of the <body> element, these are mapped to the correct ARIA roles by the browser).
If I had to choose to recommend implementing just one correctly, it would be the <main> landmark. All the developer has to do is to add role="main" to the container element that is also the target of the "skip to main" link.
So I try to get developers to implement a skip link and landmarks together, and I use headings from the context of 1.3.1, because headings are tied to the page content, skip links and landmarks are tied to the page structure.

But, yes, sadly, browser vendors have so far failed to do their part to ttranslateARIA landmarks into something useful.
There are browser add-ons that people can install and enable them to navigate by landmarks, but often people work in corporate environments that are locked down and browser add-ons are not available, plus this really should be a core function of the browser.
The beauty of landmarks over headings is that, at least when we are discussing the main 3, they are predictable and consistent. Headings can be used in so many different ways that using them for navigating can end up causing confusion.
Let's push back on the browser vendors.
Skip links are still valuable, especially when the page has a large header that is not implemented as a menu structure or expand/collapse sections.
PayPal created a skip to widget that is a listbox of links with a "go"
button if you want to add many skip links using only two tab stops. It is a cool idea, but if you find that is necessary for your page you may want to consider using other widgets to categorize and simplify the page.
Cheers
-B





On 8/10/16, Jennifer Sutton < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Since we have been having this discussion here on WebAIM, for many
> years now ...
>
>
> And as far as I know, browser vendors don't read this list . . .
>
>
> What can be done to productively advocate for this change to have
> browser vendors include methods for navigating by headings and
> landmarks, for all users?
>
>
> Have there been bugs filed against all browsers, for example, so that
> people who follow such things more closely than I do could post such
> links, and people who want to can comment on the bugs/vote them up, or
> whatever where browser vendors will see?
>
>
> For example, what about Edge, since Microsoft seems to be being so
> visible with its accessibility efforts, of late?
>
>
> As far as I can tell, repeating ourselves here on the list is not helping.
>
>
> Jennifer
>
>
>
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 1:03PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

On 10/08/2016 18:25, Jim Homme wrote:
> Hi Jared,
> That's if you could ever get developers to standardize how they code landmarks.

Chicken...egg...

If more browsers (or readily and consistently available
plugins/extensions) supported <main> / role="main", more sites would
adopt this approach.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Patrick H. Lauke
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 1:08PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

On 10/08/2016 19:00, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:

> There are browser add-ons that people can install and enable them to
> navigate by landmarks, but often people work in corporate environments
> that are locked down and browser add-ons are not available,

*IF* there are useful addons/extensions that are fairly essential to a
member of staff/student, and the corporate entity/university/workplace
is not allowing it to be installed, the latter are arguably failing to
make reasonable adjustments for their staff/students.

At least in the UK, that would be reason enough to get the corporate
entity/university/workplace in some trouble.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Jim Homme
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 1:18PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,
Exactly.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 3:03 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

On 10/08/2016 18:25, Jim Homme wrote:
> Hi Jared,
> That's if you could ever get developers to standardize how they code landmarks.

Chicken...egg...

If more browsers (or readily and consistently available
plugins/extensions) supported <main> / role="main", more sites would adopt this approach.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 2:11PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Well, my point re people having difficulty installing plug-ins was
mostly to emphasize that the functionality should be offered by web
browsers directly.
If you have to take extra steps to get something done it takes
discovery, initiative and process to get them done.
I want to be convinced that more markup is needed to meet 2.4.1, my
understanding has always been that one of these 3 mechanisms is
sufficient. *grin* But, like I said, I don't think it is good
usability and that's what we want.
I want to turn chicken and egg problems into bacon and egg problems,
tastier, juicier and good for breakfast.



On 8/10/16, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi,
> Exactly.
>
> Jim
>
>
> =========> Jim Homme,
> Accessibility Consultant,
> Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
> Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
> 412-787-8567,
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
> E+R=O
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf
> Of Patrick H. Lauke
> Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 3:03 PM
> To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
>
> On 10/08/2016 18:25, Jim Homme wrote:
>> Hi Jared,
>> That's if you could ever get developers to standardize how they code
>> landmarks.
>
> Chicken...egg...
>
> If more browsers (or readily and consistently available
> plugins/extensions) supported <main> / role="main", more sites would adopt
> this approach.
>
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> > > > > > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jonathan Avila
Date: Wed, Aug 10 2016 7:27PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

> *IF* there are useful addons/extensions that are fairly essential to a member of staff/student, and the corporate entity/university/workplace is not allowing it to be installed

I'd argue that's not so simply on mobile -- I'm not aware of mobile browsers supporting extensions and add-ons. JavaScript favlets can be used -- I use one on iOS to force Safari to ignore the viewport restrictions on pages.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group 
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
703.637.8957 (Office)

Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | Linkedin | Blog
Check out our Digital Accessibility Webinars!


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 3:08 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

On 10/08/2016 19:00, Birkir R. Gunnarsson wrote:

> There are browser add-ons that people can install and enable them to
> navigate by landmarks, but often people work in corporate environments
> that are locked down and browser add-ons are not available,

*IF* there are useful addons/extensions that are fairly essential to a member of staff/student, and the corporate entity/university/workplace is not allowing it to be installed, the latter are arguably failing to make reasonable adjustments for their staff/students.

At least in the UK, that would be reason enough to get the corporate entity/university/workplace in some trouble.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke

From: _mallory
Date: Thu, Aug 11 2016 1:49PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 10:35:55AM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
> I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts to
> get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think it's
> gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack of
> "skip" links could finally go away.

I kept using Opera 12 for as long as possible for exactly this reason:
spatial navigation and heading navigation. Lovely. Gone when Opera
switched to the Blink engine.

cheers,
_mallory

From: Whitney Quesenbery
Date: Sat, Aug 13 2016 2:39PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

What about skip links that are invisible until reached by tabbing?

I've seen these in a few places and thought they were an elegant compromise
between an uncluttered visual interface and good keyboard navigation. In
several of the examples, the link appears in a blank spot on the interface,
with a strong outline, so it's easy to read.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM _mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 10:35:55AM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
> > I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts to
> > get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think it's
> > gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack of
> > "skip" links could finally go away.
>
> I kept using Opera 12 for as long as possible for exactly this reason:
> spatial navigation and heading navigation. Lovely. Gone when Opera
> switched to the Blink engine.
>
> cheers,
> _mallory
> > > > >
--
*Whitney Quesenbery*
(lists) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(work) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Jim Homme
Date: Sat, Aug 13 2016 2:47PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi,
This is my position briefly on this topic. I like to avoid using off-screen controls at all. Keyboard-only users get confused when they tab onto controls and don't see focus. It also confuses issues when blind people try to get help from customer service people without disabilities, because they may not realize that some content is off-screen. Further more, it's a nice feature that JAWS has built in recently to jump directly to the main landmark of a page. Of course, this depends, as do any other landmatrks, on correct coding practices. Until browsers allow keyboard-only users to jump among landmarks, I see no choice but to continue to use skip links or some other similar mechanism. I feel that there should be as fiew of them as possible, though, because it forces the keyboard-only user to tab onto another link every time developers include it.

Hopefully I didn't miss something in this tirade.

Jim


=========
Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant, Web developer,
Bender HighTest Team,
Bender Consulting Services, inc.
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >,
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions

On Aug 13, 2016, at 4:39 PM, Whitney Quesenbery < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:

What about skip links that are invisible until reached by tabbing?

I've seen these in a few places and thought they were an elegant compromise
between an uncluttered visual interface and good keyboard navigation. In
several of the examples, the link appears in a blank spot on the interface,
with a strong outline, so it's easy to read.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM _mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 10:35:55AM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts to
get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think it's
gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack of
"skip" links could finally go away.

I kept using Opera 12 for as long as possible for exactly this reason:
spatial navigation and heading navigation. Lovely. Gone when Opera
switched to the Blink engine.

cheers,
_mallory
--
*Whitney Quesenbery*
(lists) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
(work) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >

From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Date: Sat, Aug 13 2016 4:55PM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

I usually point people to this article about skip links:
http://terrillthompson.com/blog/161
especially the CSS that makes skip links visible for keyboard only
users on focus.
That the JQuery solution is no longer needed (browsers have improved
since the article was written).
Just make sure to put tabindex="-1" on the target (as well as
role="main" if it isn't the <main> element so you get the
corresponding main landmark).
If the skip link is completely off-screen at all times it is close to
useless. Screen reader usres don't need it, if they have landmarks or
headings, but the keyboard only user has no such mechanism.
I also know that people are acutely aware of how precious screen space
is, so often they are not able to fit an "always visible skip link"
into their designs.
But a skip link that is the first tab sstop on the page and becomes
visible as you tab to it (on focus) with is a good compromise and
people are usually willing to implement that.
-B


On 8/13/16, Jim Homme < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
> Hi,
> This is my position briefly on this topic. I like to avoid using off-screen
> controls at all. Keyboard-only users get confused when they tab onto
> controls and don't see focus. It also confuses issues when blind people try
> to get help from customer service people without disabilities, because they
> may not realize that some content is off-screen. Further more, it's a nice
> feature that JAWS has built in recently to jump directly to the main
> landmark of a page. Of course, this depends, as do any other landmatrks, on
> correct coding practices. Until browsers allow keyboard-only users to jump
> among landmarks, I see no choice but to continue to use skip links or some
> other similar mechanism. I feel that there should be as fiew of them as
> possible, though, because it forces the keyboard-only user to tab onto
> another link every time developers include it.
>
> Hopefully I didn't miss something in this tirade.
>
> Jim
>
>
> =========>
> Jim Homme,
> Accessibility Consultant, Web developer,
> Bender HighTest Team,
> Bender Consulting Services, inc.
> 412-787-8567,
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >,
> http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
>
> On Aug 13, 2016, at 4:39 PM, Whitney Quesenbery
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
>
> What about skip links that are invisible until reached by tabbing?
>
> I've seen these in a few places and thought they were an elegant compromise
> between an uncluttered visual interface and good keyboard navigation. In
> several of the examples, the link appears in a blank spot on the interface,
> with a strong outline, so it's easy to read.
>
> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM _mallory
> < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 10:35:55AM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
> I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts to
> get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think it's
> gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack of
> "skip" links could finally go away.
>
> I kept using Opera 12 for as long as possible for exactly this reason:
> spatial navigation and heading navigation. Lovely. Gone when Opera
> switched to the Blink engine.
>
> cheers,
> _mallory
> > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>
> --
> *Whitney Quesenbery*
> (lists) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> (work) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > > = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> > > > >


--
Work hard. Have fun. Make history.

From: Jamous, JP
Date: Sun, Aug 14 2016 8:16AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

But aren't we here violating SC 3.2.1?
https://www.wuhcag.com/on-focus/

A keyboard user looks at the page and sees no skip link. He or she gets ticketed off and closes the page or navigates to another one.

Personally, I don't like to hide anything from the user although I know that space is so precious.

I believe this can be debatable, but at least we try to keep it like that on our company site. Don't surprise the user with something that is supposed to be a basic part of the content. On the other hand, SEO can backfire on the ranking if too much off screen stuff is on the site. It can be viewed by search engines as a way to achieve higher ranking through off screen content.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Whitney Quesenbery
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 3:39 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

What about skip links that are invisible until reached by tabbing?

I've seen these in a few places and thought they were an elegant compromise between an uncluttered visual interface and good keyboard navigation. In several of the examples, the link appears in a blank spot on the interface, with a strong outline, so it's easy to read.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM _mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 10:35:55AM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
> > I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts
> > to get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think
> > it's gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack
> > of "skip" links could finally go away.
>
> I kept using Opera 12 for as long as possible for exactly this reason:
> spatial navigation and heading navigation. Lovely. Gone when Opera
> switched to the Blink engine.
>
> cheers,
> _mallory
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
--
*Whitney Quesenbery*
(lists) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(work) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Jim Homme
Date: Sun, Aug 14 2016 8:17AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | Next message →

Hi Jamous,
No, because when focus lands on the skip link, it appears.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jamous, JP
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 10:16 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

But aren't we here violating SC 3.2.1?
https://www.wuhcag.com/on-focus/

A keyboard user looks at the page and sees no skip link. He or she gets ticketed off and closes the page or navigates to another one.

Personally, I don't like to hide anything from the user although I know that space is so precious.

I believe this can be debatable, but at least we try to keep it like that on our company site. Don't surprise the user with something that is supposed to be a basic part of the content. On the other hand, SEO can backfire on the ranking if too much off screen stuff is on the site. It can be viewed by search engines as a way to achieve higher ranking through off screen content.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Whitney Quesenbery
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 3:39 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

What about skip links that are invisible until reached by tabbing?

I've seen these in a few places and thought they were an elegant compromise between an uncluttered visual interface and good keyboard navigation. In several of the examples, the link appears in a blank spot on the interface, with a strong outline, so it's easy to read.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM _mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 10:35:55AM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
> > I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts
> > to get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think
> > it's gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack
> > of "skip" links could finally go away.
>
> I kept using Opera 12 for as long as possible for exactly this reason:
> spatial navigation and heading navigation. Lovely. Gone when Opera
> switched to the Blink engine.
>
> cheers,
> _mallory
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
--
*Whitney Quesenbery*
(lists) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
(work) = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Jim Homme
Date: Sun, Aug 14 2016 8:18AM
Subject: Re: Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users
← Previous message | No next message

Hi,
Wrong answer. I was thinking of 2.4.7. Correct answer. We are not changing context.So, answer is still no.


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jim Homme
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 10:18 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

Hi Jamous,
No, because when focus lands on the skip link, it appears.

Jim


=========Jim Homme,
Accessibility Consultant,
Bender HighTest Accessibility Team
Bender Consulting Services, Inc.,
412-787-8567,
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
http://www.benderconsult.com/our%20services/hightest-accessible-technology-solutions
E+R=O

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Jamous, JP
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 10:16 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

But aren't we here violating SC 3.2.1?
https://www.wuhcag.com/on-focus/

A keyboard user looks at the page and sees no skip link. He or she gets ticketed off and closes the page or navigates to another one.

Personally, I don't like to hide anything from the user although I know that space is so precious.

I believe this can be debatable, but at least we try to keep it like that on our company site. Don't surprise the user with something that is supposed to be a basic part of the content. On the other hand, SEO can backfire on the ranking if too much off screen stuff is on the site. It can be viewed by search engines as a way to achieve higher ranking through off screen content.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Whitney Quesenbery
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2016 3:39 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Skip Links and ARIA Landmarks for Sighted Users

What about skip links that are invisible until reached by tabbing?

I've seen these in a few places and thought they were an elegant compromise between an uncluttered visual interface and good keyboard navigation. In several of the examples, the link appears in a blank spot on the interface, with a strong outline, so it's easy to read.

On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 3:54 PM _mallory < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 10:35:55AM -0600, Jared Smith wrote:
> > I'd love to have this functionality. I know there have been efforts
> > to get browsers to support this functionality, but I don't think
> > it's gotten anywhere. If it ever happened, the ugly, obtrusive hack
> > of "skip" links could finally go away.
>
> I kept using Opera 12 for as long as possible for exactly this reason:
> spatial navigation and heading navigation. Lovely. Gone when Opera
> switched to the Blink engine.
>
> cheers,
> _mallory
> > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
--
*Whitney Quesenbery*
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