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From: L Snider
Date: Sat, Nov 25 2017 9:00PM
Subject: PDF and Order
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Hi Everyone,

Question about different orders in PDF. I know the tag order is the crucial
order for screen readers, but do you still look at the order in the order
panel? Is it still needed today?

I have done extensive research and found that some people think that the
order shown in the order panel is outdated, as most people don't use reflow.

The order in the order panel should match the tag order, but in my
experience it can be off in places and then the fun begins. Most times I
get lucky and both are pretty much the same, but then some documents are
not fun.

I still think the order shown in the order panel is important, but am
wondering do you think it is still relevant? Relevant in terms of spending
time to correct that order...

Cheers

Lisa

From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Sat, Nov 25 2017 10:19PM
Subject: Re: PDF and Order
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Yes, we still recommend checking the architectural/construction order in the Order Panel (also called the Z-Order).
It was the original order for A T and some still use it, such as Braille printers and devices, and some A T for mobility.

Acrobat's Reflow utility is a minor user of this order, but if we create better PDFs, Reflow is a useful tool for those with failing sight. I see it used in senior centers, for example. It's a handy and useful tool for those who don't need a full featured screen reader.

Putting it into practice, we recommend:
1. Making sure the tag tree order is correct.
2. Making sure the Order panel is fairly close to the Tag Tree's order. Doesn't have to be a perfect match, but at least something that will present a logical order for those devices that use it.

Keep in mind that the Tag Tree shows the order of the entire document, from start to finish. The Order panel, instead, is page based and creates a reading order for each individual page, one page at a time. This can affect how much effort you put into correcting the order.

The best strategy is to control the Order in your original source file. Both orders in the exported PDF should come out correct.

--Bevi Chagnon
— — —
Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
Technologists for Accessible Design and Publishing
print – digital – web – documents – pdfs – epubs
consulting – training – development – design – sec. 508 services
— — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of L Snider
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 11:00 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [WebAIM] PDF and Order

Hi Everyone,

Question about different orders in PDF. I know the tag order is the crucial order for screen readers, but do you still look at the order in the order panel? Is it still needed today?

I have done extensive research and found that some people think that the order shown in the order panel is outdated, as most people don't use reflow.

The order in the order panel should match the tag order, but in my experience it can be off in places and then the fun begins. Most times I get lucky and both are pretty much the same, but then some documents are not fun.

I still think the order shown in the order panel is important, but am wondering do you think it is still relevant? Relevant in terms of spending time to correct that order...

Cheers
Lisa

From: L Snider
Date: Sun, Nov 26 2017 5:32AM
Subject: Re: PDF and Order
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Hi Bevi,

Thanks! I wish more people (general public) understood that the original is
where you should spend the time.

I wonder if Adobe will ever change the layers so the average person can
understand them better? Most people who haven't coded are scared of the
tags, but the order with its numbers isn't scary...

Thanks again

Lisa


On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 11:19 PM, Chagnon | PubCom < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
wrote:

> Yes, we still recommend checking the architectural/construction order in
> the Order Panel (also called the Z-Order).
> It was the original order for A T and some still use it, such as Braille
> printers and devices, and some A T for mobility.
>
> Acrobat's Reflow utility is a minor user of this order, but if we create
> better PDFs, Reflow is a useful tool for those with failing sight. I see it
> used in senior centers, for example. It's a handy and useful tool for those
> who don't need a full featured screen reader.
>
> Putting it into practice, we recommend:
> 1. Making sure the tag tree order is correct.
> 2. Making sure the Order panel is fairly close to the Tag Tree's order.
> Doesn't have to be a perfect match, but at least something that will
> present a logical order for those devices that use it.
>
> Keep in mind that the Tag Tree shows the order of the entire document,
> from start to finish. The Order panel, instead, is page based and creates a
> reading order for each individual page, one page at a time. This can affect
> how much effort you put into correcting the order.
>
> The best strategy is to control the Order in your original source file.
> Both orders in the exported PDF should come out correct.
>
> --Bevi Chagnon
> — — —
> Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> Technologists for Accessible Design and Publishing
> print – digital – web – documents – pdfs – epubs
> consulting – training – development – design – sec. 508 services
> — — —
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On
> Behalf Of L Snider
> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 11:00 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: [WebAIM] PDF and Order
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Question about different orders in PDF. I know the tag order is the
> crucial order for screen readers, but do you still look at the order in the
> order panel? Is it still needed today?
>
> I have done extensive research and found that some people think that the
> order shown in the order panel is outdated, as most people don't use reflow.
>
> The order in the order panel should match the tag order, but in my
> experience it can be off in places and then the fun begins. Most times I
> get lucky and both are pretty much the same, but then some documents are
> not fun.
>
> I still think the order shown in the order panel is important, but am
> wondering do you think it is still relevant? Relevant in terms of spending
> time to correct that order...
>
> Cheers
> Lisa
>
> > > > >