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Number of posts in this thread: 7 (In chronological order)

From: Robert W Kingett
Date: Mon, Apr 09 2018 12:31PM
Subject: mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility
No previous message | Next message →

They talk a lot about users creating accessible emails, but when you, as
a creator, start to get into the settings and otherwise, you find a lot
of unlabeled buttons and even unlabeled links and unlabeled edit fields!
I'm a writer, blogger, and journalist, not a coder. I want to spend more
time creating and less time with servers and the like. So does anybody
have any mailchimp alternatives?


In another note, I am currently trying to get patreon to take
accessibility seriously. So far, they have ignored me. I know many many
people here don't use patreon or even know what it is, but I've lost
money because of their inaccessibility.


Below is a post on someone else's attempt to make it accessible.


Patreon is a site that describes itself as the "best way for artists and
creators to get sustainable income and connect with fans." This could be
a great boon to many blind entrepreneurs, but to date the site has shown
little interest in resolving its numerous accessibility shortcomings.
You can read this blog post on the topic:


https://incl.ca/patreon-and-accessibility/


Advocacy efforts are underway to encourage the company to do the right
thing. To join a mailing list about these efforts, send a blank message to:
team+ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: chagnon@pubcom.com
Date: Mon, Apr 09 2018 1:16PM
Subject: Re: mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Being in the arts and design industries, I'm very familiar with Patreon. It was created by artists so that they could sell their work and retain copyright and monetary control over their intellectual content.

Basically, Patreon bypasses the traditional middlemen of agents, distributors, aggregators, etc. and lets artists retain more money from their work.

It's a great site for artists, as long as they don't use A T.

Much as I love my fellow artists, this group of people is tone deaf to accessibility. It really isn't on their "triage" list, as you found out.

Example: we're remediating a graphic design job/PDF for a design studio. For a list where they wanted checkmarks as the bullet character, they instead chose a funky looking square root sign. The designers want what they see, not what the actual character is, so we have to correct this so that screen reader users don't here ... "pack these items for your trip: square root toothbrush, square root clean underwear" etc.

It's not like they couldn't find a nice-looking Unicode checkmark to use instead of a math symbol.

They just don't have a clue about accessibility.

Robert, I hope you'll keep the dialogue going with them. In time, they'll come around. The question is why not do it now and ensure that 1. They maximize their business potential to include artists who use A T, 2. They maximize their revenue by including customers who use A T, and 3. They head off any potential ADA infringements.

—Bevi

— — —
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
— — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services
Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes
— — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert W Kingett
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:32 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

They talk a lot about users creating accessible emails, but when you, as a creator, start to get into the settings and otherwise, you find a lot of unlabeled buttons and even unlabeled links and unlabeled edit fields!
I'm a writer, blogger, and journalist, not a coder. I want to spend more time creating and less time with servers and the like. So does anybody have any mailchimp alternatives?


In another note, I am currently trying to get patreon to take accessibility seriously. So far, they have ignored me. I know many many people here don't use patreon or even know what it is, but I've lost money because of their inaccessibility.

Below is a post on someone else's attempt to make it accessible.

Patreon is a site that describes itself as the "best way for artists and creators to get sustainable income and connect with fans." This could be a great boon to many blind entrepreneurs, but to date the site has shown little interest in resolving its numerous accessibility shortcomings.
You can read this blog post on the topic:

https://incl.ca/patreon-and-accessibility/

Advocacy efforts are underway to encourage the company to do the right thing. To join a mailing list about these efforts, send a blank message to:
team+ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: JP Jamous
Date: Mon, Apr 09 2018 1:45PM
Subject: Re: mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Yeah, those are the hardest to convince. It is understandable though, because when I was sighted, everything visual made perfect sense to me. They are mostly visual in nature. Give them a bit of directions verbally and they are lost.

It is not cool when they get stubborn about some of their designs. I sometimes like to see some of them meet me halfway. To them visual patterns are like sonds to blnd individuals. Just a tiny impreffection can drive them insane. The same with blind users, whom focus on hearing all the time and a slight movement of the speaker can make JAWS sound different in a room.

Try to educate them as much and provide awareness. With time, they will hopefully embrace accessibility.



--------------------
JP Jamous
Senior Digital Accessibility Engineer
E-Mail Me |Join My LinkedIn Network
--------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:17 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

Being in the arts and design industries, I'm very familiar with Patreon. It was created by artists so that they could sell their work and retain copyright and monetary control over their intellectual content.

Basically, Patreon bypasses the traditional middlemen of agents, distributors, aggregators, etc. and lets artists retain more money from their work.

It's a great site for artists, as long as they don't use A T.

Much as I love my fellow artists, this group of people is tone deaf to accessibility. It really isn't on their "triage" list, as you found out.

Example: we're remediating a graphic design job/PDF for a design studio. For a list where they wanted checkmarks as the bullet character, they instead chose a funky looking square root sign. The designers want what they see, not what the actual character is, so we have to correct this so that screen reader users don't here ... "pack these items for your trip: square root toothbrush, square root clean underwear" etc.

It's not like they couldn't find a nice-looking Unicode checkmark to use instead of a math symbol.

They just don't have a clue about accessibility.

Robert, I hope you'll keep the dialogue going with them. In time, they'll come around. The question is why not do it now and ensure that 1. They maximize their business potential to include artists who use A T, 2. They maximize their revenue by including customers who use A T, and 3. They head off any potential ADA infringements.

—Bevi

— — —
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = — — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes — — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert W Kingett
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:32 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

They talk a lot about users creating accessible emails, but when you, as a creator, start to get into the settings and otherwise, you find a lot of unlabeled buttons and even unlabeled links and unlabeled edit fields!
I'm a writer, blogger, and journalist, not a coder. I want to spend more time creating and less time with servers and the like. So does anybody have any mailchimp alternatives?


In another note, I am currently trying to get patreon to take accessibility seriously. So far, they have ignored me. I know many many people here don't use patreon or even know what it is, but I've lost money because of their inaccessibility.

Below is a post on someone else's attempt to make it accessible.

Patreon is a site that describes itself as the "best way for artists and creators to get sustainable income and connect with fans." This could be a great boon to many blind entrepreneurs, but to date the site has shown little interest in resolving its numerous accessibility shortcomings.
You can read this blog post on the topic:

https://incl.ca/patreon-and-accessibility/

Advocacy efforts are underway to encourage the company to do the right thing. To join a mailing list about these efforts, send a blank message to:
team+ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Tim Harshbarger
Date: Tue, Apr 10 2018 5:33AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Sometimes I have a feeling the best way to persuade other people to make things more accessible might be to temporarily set aside discussions of accessibility and spend time trying to genuinely understand their perspective of things. When I think of my own experience and the experience of my many wonderful accessibility colleagues and friends, it seems we often are successful when we find some way to connect with their world. Sometimes that is really easy because my way of thinking ends up not being much different from those I want to persuade. Other times it seems to take a long time because the way they perceive the world is a lot different from mine.

I hope no one takes this as a criticism of their approach because I do not intend it to be. It is just my thoughts on my own experiences and why sometimes I think we succeed and other times the path seems difficult.

It is odd how two people can speak the same language and still manage not to understand what the other means or intends. Evidently, I must be feeling a bit philosophical today.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of JP Jamous
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:45 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

Yeah, those are the hardest to convince. It is understandable though, because when I was sighted, everything visual made perfect sense to me. They are mostly visual in nature. Give them a bit of directions verbally and they are lost.

It is not cool when they get stubborn about some of their designs. I sometimes like to see some of them meet me halfway. To them visual patterns are like sonds to blnd individuals. Just a tiny impreffection can drive them insane. The same with blind users, whom focus on hearing all the time and a slight movement of the speaker can make JAWS sound different in a room.

Try to educate them as much and provide awareness. With time, they will hopefully embrace accessibility.



--------------------
JP Jamous
Senior Digital Accessibility Engineer
E-Mail Me |Join My LinkedIn Network
--------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:17 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

Being in the arts and design industries, I'm very familiar with Patreon. It was created by artists so that they could sell their work and retain copyright and monetary control over their intellectual content.

Basically, Patreon bypasses the traditional middlemen of agents, distributors, aggregators, etc. and lets artists retain more money from their work.

It's a great site for artists, as long as they don't use A T.

Much as I love my fellow artists, this group of people is tone deaf to accessibility. It really isn't on their "triage" list, as you found out.

Example: we're remediating a graphic design job/PDF for a design studio. For a list where they wanted checkmarks as the bullet character, they instead chose a funky looking square root sign. The designers want what they see, not what the actual character is, so we have to correct this so that screen reader users don't here ... "pack these items for your trip: square root toothbrush, square root clean underwear" etc.

It's not like they couldn't find a nice-looking Unicode checkmark to use instead of a math symbol.

They just don't have a clue about accessibility.

Robert, I hope you'll keep the dialogue going with them. In time, they'll come around. The question is why not do it now and ensure that 1. They maximize their business potential to include artists who use A T, 2. They maximize their revenue by including customers who use A T, and 3. They head off any potential ADA infringements.

—Bevi

— — —
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = — — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes — — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert W Kingett
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:32 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

They talk a lot about users creating accessible emails, but when you, as a creator, start to get into the settings and otherwise, you find a lot of unlabeled buttons and even unlabeled links and unlabeled edit fields!
I'm a writer, blogger, and journalist, not a coder. I want to spend more time creating and less time with servers and the like. So does anybody have any mailchimp alternatives?


In another note, I am currently trying to get patreon to take accessibility seriously. So far, they have ignored me. I know many many people here don't use patreon or even know what it is, but I've lost money because of their inaccessibility.

Below is a post on someone else's attempt to make it accessible.

Patreon is a site that describes itself as the "best way for artists and creators to get sustainable income and connect with fans." This could be a great boon to many blind entrepreneurs, but to date the site has shown little interest in resolving its numerous accessibility shortcomings.
You can read this blog post on the topic:

https://incl.ca/patreon-and-accessibility/

Advocacy efforts are underway to encourage the company to do the right thing. To join a mailing list about these efforts, send a blank message to:
team+ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Julie Romanowski
Date: Tue, Apr 10 2018 5:53AM
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL]mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

Well said, Tim!

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of Tim Harshbarger
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 6:33 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

Sometimes I have a feeling the best way to persuade other people to make things more accessible might be to temporarily set aside discussions of accessibility and spend time trying to genuinely understand their perspective of things. When I think of my own experience and the experience of my many wonderful accessibility colleagues and friends, it seems we often are successful when we find some way to connect with their world. Sometimes that is really easy because my way of thinking ends up not being much different from those I want to persuade. Other times it seems to take a long time because the way they perceive the world is a lot different from mine.

I hope no one takes this as a criticism of their approach because I do not intend it to be. It is just my thoughts on my own experiences and why sometimes I think we succeed and other times the path seems difficult.

It is odd how two people can speak the same language and still manage not to understand what the other means or intends. Evidently, I must be feeling a bit philosophical today.

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ] On Behalf Of JP Jamous
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:45 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

Yeah, those are the hardest to convince. It is understandable though, because when I was sighted, everything visual made perfect sense to me. They are mostly visual in nature. Give them a bit of directions verbally and they are lost.

It is not cool when they get stubborn about some of their designs. I sometimes like to see some of them meet me halfway. To them visual patterns are like sonds to blnd individuals. Just a tiny impreffection can drive them insane. The same with blind users, whom focus on hearing all the time and a slight movement of the speaker can make JAWS sound different in a room.

Try to educate them as much and provide awareness. With time, they will hopefully embrace accessibility.



--------------------
JP Jamous
Senior Digital Accessibility Engineer
E-Mail Me |Join My LinkedIn Network
--------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:17 PM
To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

Being in the arts and design industries, I'm very familiar with Patreon. It was created by artists so that they could sell their work and retain copyright and monetary control over their intellectual content.

Basically, Patreon bypasses the traditional middlemen of agents, distributors, aggregators, etc. and lets artists retain more money from their work.

It's a great site for artists, as long as they don't use A T.

Much as I love my fellow artists, this group of people is tone deaf to accessibility. It really isn't on their "triage" list, as you found out.

Example: we're remediating a graphic design job/PDF for a design studio. For a list where they wanted checkmarks as the bullet character, they instead chose a funky looking square root sign. The designers want what they see, not what the actual character is, so we have to correct this so that screen reader users don't here ... "pack these items for your trip: square root toothbrush, square root clean underwear" etc.

It's not like they couldn't find a nice-looking Unicode checkmark to use instead of a math symbol.

They just don't have a clue about accessibility.

Robert, I hope you'll keep the dialogue going with them. In time, they'll come around. The question is why not do it now and ensure that 1. They maximize their business potential to include artists who use A T, 2. They maximize their revenue by including customers who use A T, and 3. They head off any potential ADA infringements.

—Bevi

— — —
Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = — — —
PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing consulting ' training ' development ' design ' sec. 508 services Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes — — —

-----Original Message-----
From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of Robert W Kingett
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2018 2:32 PM
To: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
Subject: [WebAIM] mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility

They talk a lot about users creating accessible emails, but when you, as a creator, start to get into the settings and otherwise, you find a lot of unlabeled buttons and even unlabeled links and unlabeled edit fields!
I'm a writer, blogger, and journalist, not a coder. I want to spend more time creating and less time with servers and the like. So does anybody have any mailchimp alternatives?


In another note, I am currently trying to get patreon to take accessibility seriously. So far, they have ignored me. I know many many people here don't use patreon or even know what it is, but I've lost money because of their inaccessibility.

Below is a post on someone else's attempt to make it accessible.

Patreon is a site that describes itself as the "best way for artists and creators to get sustainable income and connect with fans." This could be a great boon to many blind entrepreneurs, but to date the site has shown little interest in resolving its numerous accessibility shortcomings.
You can read this blog post on the topic:

https://incl.ca/patreon-and-accessibility/

Advocacy efforts are underway to encourage the company to do the right thing. To join a mailing list about these efforts, send a blank message to:
team+ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Tue, Apr 10 2018 6:52AM
Subject: Re: mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility
← Previous message | Next message →

I have not look at the creating part of Constant Contact, but as a receiver of notices from organizations that use them, I have found that their e-mails are more likely to be accessible than the ones I have received from Mail Chimp.

HTH,
Jonathan Cohn



> On Apr 9, 2018, at 2:31 PM, Robert W Kingett < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> They talk a lot about users creating accessible emails, but when you, as a creator, start to get into the settings and otherwise, you find a lot of unlabeled buttons and even unlabeled links and unlabeled edit fields! I'm a writer, blogger, and journalist, not a coder. I want to spend more time creating and less time with servers and the like. So does anybody have any mailchimp alternatives?
>
>
> In another note, I am currently trying to get patreon to take accessibility seriously. So far, they have ignored me. I know many many people here don't use patreon or even know what it is, but I've lost money because of their inaccessibility.
>
>
> Below is a post on someone else's attempt to make it accessible.
>
>
> Patreon is a site that describes itself as the "best way for artists and creators to get sustainable income and connect with fans." This could be a great boon to many blind entrepreneurs, but to date the site has shown little interest in resolving its numerous accessibility shortcomings. You can read this blog post on the topic:
>
>
> https://incl.ca/patreon-and-accessibility/
>
>
> Advocacy efforts are underway to encourage the company to do the right thing. To join a mailing list about these efforts, send a blank message to:
> team+ = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
> > > >

From: Robert W Kingett
Date: Tue, Apr 10 2018 7:18AM
Subject: Re: mailchimp accessibility and Patreon accessibility
← Previous message | No next message

Thanks! I will give Constant Contact a shot.