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Thread: MathML and simple math content

Number of posts in this thread: 3 (In chronological order)

From: Jonathan Cohn
Date: Tue, Jun 18 2019 9:44AM
Subject: MathML and simple math content
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This is certainly a issue of significant trouble where I work also. There is not only the issue of being able to represent the math as speech, regional differences in how to best represent equations and parts of equations make the translation of Math to speech more difficult than just words. At least when MATHML gets represented as Braille there are only two ways to represent it in the US.
Also, the most used screen readers on a couple different systems will not consistently work with all MathML. Sometimes this can be adjusted by changing a configuration how complex information is represented, but in other cases a Math expression that works fine on one system will be ignored on another. I have also run into a situation where operators when read multiple times by read by character will output a different operator rendering the comprehension of the equation impossible.

> On Jun 3, 2019, at 10:45 AM, Michael Ausbun < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Hello All,
> I am curious. Being blind and interacting with Math content with various assistive technologies, I recognize the problem this presents. What roll might Pearson's accessible equation editor play? Might the equation editor be modified in such a way to provide a robust output (if Pearson in general, Sam Dooley specifically, would be interested in expanding the functionality. Just a thought I have been thinking about over the last few days.
> Respectfully,
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Michael Duane Ausbun, MA
> Specialist, Learning Experience,
> Universal Design and Accessibility Team
> Salt Lake City, Utah
> [WGU Learning Experience]
>
> Western Governors University
> 4001 South 700 East, Suite 700
> Salt Lake City, UT 84107
> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>
>
> [Western Governors University]<wgu.edu>
>
>
>
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2019 8:34 AM
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple math content
>
> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] WARNING: Be wise. Be cautious.
>
> Isabel H wrote:
> "the upshot of which sadly seems to be that there's no tried and trusted
> means of presenting mathematical content in a way that reliably works for
> screenreader or Braille users."
>
> That's correct. There is no one single method of creating accessible math
> that works seamlessly across all assistive technologies. Also, no one method
> when we create the accessible content and move the math from an equation
> editor into documents, websites, EPUBs, whatever.
>
> It's a real mess for the entire community.
>
> Someone needs to fix this!
>
> - - -
> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
> - - -
> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
> consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
> Upcoming classes at www.PubCom.com/classes<;http://www.PubCom.com/classes>;
> - - -
> Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at www.PubCom.com/blog<;http://www.PubCom.com/blog>;
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> On Behalf Of
> Isabel Holdsworth
> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2019 9:48 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content
>
> Thank you Mallory for such a long and comprehensive reply!
>
> I've learned a lot from this thread, the upshot of which sadly seems to be
> that there's no tried and trusted means of presenting mathematical content
> in a way that reliably works for screenreader or Braille users.
>
> Ah well, we'll just keep doing what we're doing and use MathML for now.
>
> Thanks again, Isabel
> > > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives<;http://webaim.org/discussion/archives>;
> >
> > > > > <image003.png>> > >

From: Cervone, Gian Carlo (gcervone)
Date: Tue, Jun 18 2019 10:44AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple math content
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Have you looked at MathJax?

http://docs.mathjax.org/en/latest/misc/accessibility-features.html

-= GCC =-

Gian Carlo Cervone
Web Manager
The College at Brockport
= EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = ' 585-395-5073
https://www.brockport.edu/support/web_team/team/gcervone.html
https://brockportwebredesign.wordpress.com

> On Jun 18, 2019, at 11:44 AM, Jonathan Cohn < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>
> Warning: Message from non-Brockport Email Server. Treat message, links, and attachments with extra care.
>
>
> This is certainly a issue of significant trouble where I work also. There is not only the issue of being able to represent the math as speech, regional differences in how to best represent equations and parts of equations make the translation of Math to speech more difficult than just words. At least when MATHML gets represented as Braille there are only two ways to represent it in the US.
> Also, the most used screen readers on a couple different systems will not consistently work with all MathML. Sometimes this can be adjusted by changing a configuration how complex information is represented, but in other cases a Math expression that works fine on one system will be ignored on another. I have also run into a situation where operators when read multiple times by read by character will output a different operator rendering the comprehension of the equation impossible.
>
>
>> On Jun 3, 2019, at 10:45 AM, Michael Ausbun < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > wrote:
>>
>> Hello All,
>> I am curious. Being blind and interacting with Math content with various assistive technologies, I recognize the problem this presents. What roll might Pearson's accessible equation editor play? Might the equation editor be modified in such a way to provide a robust output (if Pearson in general, Sam Dooley specifically, would be interested in expanding the functionality. Just a thought I have been thinking about over the last few days.
>> Respectfully,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Duane Ausbun, MA
>> Specialist, Learning Experience,
>> Universal Design and Accessibility Team
>> Salt Lake City, Utah
>> [WGU Learning Experience]
>>
>> Western Governors University
>> 4001 South 700 East, Suite 700
>> Salt Lake City, UT 84107
>> = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>>
>>
>> [Western Governors University]<wgu.edu>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = > On Behalf Of = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED =
>> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2019 8:34 AM
>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple math content
>>
>> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] WARNING: Be wise. Be cautious.
>>
>> Isabel H wrote:
>> "the upshot of which sadly seems to be that there's no tried and trusted
>> means of presenting mathematical content in a way that reliably works for
>> screenreader or Braille users."
>>
>> That's correct. There is no one single method of creating accessible math
>> that works seamlessly across all assistive technologies. Also, no one method
>> when we create the accessible content and move the math from an equation
>> editor into documents, websites, EPUBs, whatever.
>>
>> It's a real mess for the entire community.
>>
>> Someone needs to fix this!
>>
>> - - -
>> Bevi Chagnon, founder/CEO | = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >
>> - - -
>> PubCom: Technologists for Accessible Design + Publishing
>> consulting . training . development . design . sec. 508 services
>> Upcoming classes at https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.PubCom.com%2Fclasses&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C97b47350ff9e40aee17608d6f403d441%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C636964694635008219&sdata=aZf%2BcMXumeWX%2FDfNA3B28peWyuirq9ih9CMpId1IZBU%3D&reserved=0<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.PubCom.com%2Fclasses&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C97b47350ff9e40aee17608d6f403d441%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C636964694635008219&sdata=okzbIDYkxBDLwkh9VjpMq61QCkjOsO9R3XsWMh8zXNs%3D&reserved=0>
>> - - -
>> Latest blog-newsletter - Accessibility Tips at https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.PubCom.com%2Fblog&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C97b47350ff9e40aee17608d6f403d441%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C636964694635008219&sdata=xslPF4Km7ZeUwr596gfX8XFlsrReNlRZ1wO2AGjU6bU%3D&reserved=0<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.PubCom.com%2Fblog&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C97b47350ff9e40aee17608d6f403d441%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C636964694635008219&sdata=vVsaJ5xw7rEKJLoiqybWo8aPiYyf1AWyTcw9oMEZ7uE%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: WebAIM-Forum < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >> On Behalf Of
>> Isabel Holdsworth
>> Sent: Monday, June 3, 2019 9:48 AM
>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = <mailto: = EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED = >>
>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] MathML and simple maths content
>>
>> Thank you Mallory for such a long and comprehensive reply!
>>
>> I've learned a lot from this thread, the upshot of which sadly seems to be
>> that there's no tried and trusted means of presenting mathematical content
>> in a way that reliably works for screenreader or Braille users.
>>
>> Ah well, we'll just keep doing what we're doing and use MathML for now.
>>
>> Thanks again, Isabel
>> >> >> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebaim.org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchives&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C97b47350ff9e40aee17608d6f403d441%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C636964694635008219&sdata=0vfySKYRGMlO1QrPTiut%2Faey12uz7CstTdQGhpq%2FJHE%3D&reserved=0<https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebaim.org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchives&data%7C01%7Cgcervone%40brockport.edu%7C97b47350ff9e40aee17608d6f403d441%7C696ec4990f244fd9b691252a2884ef3b%7C0%7C0%7C636964694635008219&sdata=0vfySKYRGMlO1QrPTiut%2Faey12uz7CstTdQGhpq%2FJHE%3D&reserved=0>
>> >>
>> >> >> >> >> <image003.png>>> >> >> >
> > > >

From: Mallory
Date: Wed, Jun 19 2019 3:41AM
Subject: Re: MathML and simple math content
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Hi,
I know the Pearson editor uses content MathML internally (to do the translation to and from the Braille). I believe the displayed, non-Braille math is presentational MathML.

I never cared for the keyboarding of the buttons (you have to tab to everything instead of it acting like a widget.

cheers,
_mallory

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019, at 4:00 PM, Isabel Holdsworth wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> Have you seen what the output from the Pearson Accessible Equation
> Editor looks like? Do you know if it's MathML? I find that editor
> almost impossible to use. It feels like Wiris MathType with some of
> the accessibility filtered out.
>
> I quite like Wiris MathType. I think it's about the closest we've got
> to accessible online maths content at the present time, from both
> input and output perspectives.
>
> Thanks, Isabel