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Re: Is use of <label> and title redundant?

for

From: Subhash Chhetri
Date: Nov 22, 2012 9:23PM


Hi Ryan,

Tab is not an only way to navigate around the form fields.
Some user prefer viewing the form fields before filling up. using down arrow
key keeping auto forms mode off is really helpful for this.

Best regards,
Subhash Chhetri


-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
[mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E. Benson
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 6:51 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?

I am reading this thread, and the following line by Sailesh confused me:
JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
(without activating forms mode).

Are you using a version of JAWS before 10? If you aren't, I would say there
is a bug in JAWS or your install. According to
http://www.freedomscientific.com/training/surfs-up/Forms.htm, forms mode
should activate:

Auto forms mode was introduced in JAWS 10. Now when you press *TAB* or *
SHIFT+TAB* on a Web page and land in a form field or other form control,
forms mode is automatically on. It is confirmed with a sound that is
played. You no longer have to remember to switch forms mode on manually.
Forms mode is also turned on automatically if you use the *ARROW Keys* and
move into a form control such as an edit box. Again, a sound is played.
Additionally, if someone clicks into an edit box with a *MOUSE Click*,
forms mode comes on automatically.

--
Ryan E. Benson


On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:15 PM, Sailesh Panchang <
<EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Zoe / Bryan,
>
> JAWS does read title in Firefox and IE when arrowing down the page
> (without activating forms mode).
> NVDA does not read the title unless one is in forms mode.
> Using title is simpler as I have maintained all along as compared to
> off-screen label in the situations discussed.
> Failing to markup visible labels as labels and use title instead will
> fail SC 3.3.2.
> It is not alright to simply use title there.
> Sailesh
>
>
> On 11/19/12, Bryan Garaventa < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > When you refer to browse mode, do you mean when using the arrow keys to
> > navigate up and down the page in the Virtual Buffer?
> >
> > When title attributes are included on form fields, I'm hearing these
> > announced correctly as form field labels in addition to tabbing using
> > interactive mode.
> >
> > This can be broken if a title attribute is included on a form field that
> > also includes an explicit label element with matching for and ID
> attributes
> >
> > in some ATs though.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "GILLENWATER, ZOE M" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > To: "WebAIM Discussion List" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >
> >
> > Hi Sailesh,
> >
> > But if you were using visible labels you *would* hear them read in
browse
> > mode, so using title text that is not read in browse mode is a different
> > experience from the norm, and it seems to me a worse one.
> >
> > For instance, if I had three fields for month, day, and year of a
> birthday,
> >
> > and each had a visible label in front of it, I would hear in browse mode
> > something like "Birthday. Month, edit, blank. Day, edit, blank. Year,
> edit,
> >
> > blank." It's clear to me what those fields are, which allows me to know
> > whether or not I want to enter forms mode and fill out this form.
> >
> > But if I got rid of the visible labels and just used title text, some
> screen
> >
> > reader users would now hear in browse mode something like "Birthday.
> Edit,
> > blank. Edit, blank. Edit, blank." You don't think this is a worse
> experience
> >
> > than the former? Sure, I can guess at what each of those fields is, and
> have
> >
> > my guess validated when I enter forms mode and finally hear the title
> text,
> >
> > but why should the user have to do this? Why not just provide hidden
> labels
> >
> > so they hear the exact same thing they would hear had visible labels
been
> > used instead?
> >
> > I still don't see what advantage using title has over a hidden label,
> apart
> >
> > from:
> > -- it's slightly less bytes of HTML
> > -- it's slightly easier to implement (if you don't already have a hiding
> CSS
> >
> > class in your CSS, but if you do, creating hidden labels is pretty much
> just
> >
> > as easy)
> > -- it will show on hover as a tooltip to mouse-using sighted users
(which
> > could be seen as a disadvantage by some people in some situations)
> >
> > What am I missing? Are these the only reasons why you find title to be
> > superior?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Zoe
> >
> >
> >
> > Zoe Gillenwater
> > Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> > AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >
> > o: 919-241-4083
> > e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> > confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> > entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the named
> > recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
> this
> >
> > message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> > immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
dissemination,
> > forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
> Panchang
> > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:13 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >
> > On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >> Hi Sailesh,
> >>
> >> I'm afraid I don't understand your feedback. Do you think it's good for
> a
> >> screen reader to not read a form field's title text in normal reading
> >> mode?
> >> Or do you think a screen reader shouldn't read a hidden label in normal
> >> reading mode? Or do you mean something else entirely?
> > Sailesh: It is generally in situations where the UI design limits the
> > ability of developers to place a visible text label (like a search
> > edit box or controls in a table with row/col headers that serve as
> > 'labels') that a title works adequately.
> > In these situations I am not adversely impacted when the screen
> > reader does not read the title in browse mode.
> > So an off-screen label is not a game changer in these circs. It does
> > not add a whole lot of accessibility benefit.
> > It is like a data table: the screen reader does not speak row/col
> > headers unless one is in table-nav mode.
> > Most screen readers speak the alt for an image in browse mode and do
> > not speak the title for a form control. It has been so always maybe
> > for a reason.
> >
> > If the visible label text is not adequate for non-sighted users,
> > appending off-screen text to the label is fine.
> >
> >>
> >> Even if a label is hidden visually, it's still programmatically
> connected
> >>
> >> to
> >> the field, so I don't understand what you mean by this part of your
> >> response
> >> either...
> > Sailesh: Sure, but that association kicks-in only in forms mode and
> > for non-sighted users a label is no different from any other piece of
> > text on the page in non-forms mode.
> >
> > Sailesh Panchang
> > www.deque.com
> > Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
> >>
> >> Genuinely trying to figure this out and do the right thing!
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Zoe
> >>
> >> Zoe Gillenwater
> >> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> >> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >>
> >> o: 919-241-4083
> >> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>
> >> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >>
> >> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> >> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> >> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the
named
> >> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have received
> >> this
> >> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> >> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
> >> dissemination,
> >> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
> >> Panchang
> >> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 10:09 AM
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>
> >> Zoe,
> >> Certainly I have seen that behavior where the screen reader reads the
> >> off-screen label as one is arrowing down the page.
> >> But then one is reading content that is not visually available on the
> >> page and in that mode the label is really not programmatically
> >> associated with the form control.
> >> The user has to use his/her understanding / judgment to make this
> >> determination.
> >> Off-screen text that helps to convey structure / info-relationships
> >> (e.g. headings) when no other cues are available is alright but
> >> otherwise visual content should generally match / be in sync with
> >> screen reader output.
> >>
> >> In forms mode, the title clearly conveys the purpose of the control.
> >> This technique is in line withH65 of WCAG 2 techniques.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Sailesh Panchang
> >> www.deque.com
> >> Tel 703-225-0380 ext 105
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/19/12, GILLENWATER, ZOE M < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>> Hi Sailesh,
> >>>
> >>> One advantage for hidden labels that I've found when testing the
> >>> difference
> >>> between them and title attributes on form fields is that a few screen
> >>> reader-browser combinations will not read the title text in normal
> >>> reading
> >>> mode, only when focused in the form field. The hidden label always
gets
> >>> read
> >>> in both normal and forms reading modes. This seems non-trivial to me,
> as
> >>> hearing label-less form fields announced would be confusing and
doesn't
> >>> give
> >>> you the information you need to be able to decide whether you want to
> go
> >>> into forms reading mode. Have you never seen this behavior with title
> >>> text
> >>> in normal reading mode?
> >>>
> >>> I've even seen cases where not only is the title text not announced in
> >>> normal reading mode, but the type of form field is not announced, so
> you
> >>> have no idea anything is even there to enter forms mode for. Granted,
> >>> this
> >>> has only happened to me in older screen readers, but still, it's a
> >>> pretty
> >>> big problem. Again, this is just in normal reading mode--I've had no
> >>> problems with title text in forms reading mode. But because of this,
> >>> using
> >>> regular old labels seems far safer in many contexts. Title text has
its
> >>> place too, but I'm starting to think that hidden labels should be the
> >>> technique of first resort (apart from adding visible labels whenever
> >>> possible, of course!).
> >>>
> >>> I'd love to hear differing opinions on this! :-)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Zoe
> >>>
> >>> Zoe Gillenwater
> >>> Web Accessibility Technical Architect
> >>> AT&T Consumer Digital Experience
> >>>
> >>> o: 919-241-4083
> >>> e: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>
> >>> 4625 Creekstone Dr | Durham, NC 27703
> >>>
> >>> This email and any files transmitted with it are AT&T property, are
> >>> confidential, and are intended solely for the use of the individual or
> >>> entity to whom this email is addressed. If you are not one of the
> named
> >>> recipient(s) or otherwise have reason to believe that you have
received
> >>> this
> >>> message in error, please notify the sender and delete this message
> >>> immediately from your computer. Any other uses, retention,
> >>> dissemination,
> >>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Sailesh
> >>> Panchang
> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 7:53 PM
> >>> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>>
> >>> As per WCAG2 techniques, title on form controls should be used when
> >>> visible label is not present ... i.e. when purpose of form control is
> >>> obvious generally to sighted users / as per UI design.
> >>> (If purpose is not obvious visually, then the fix is to incorporate a
> >>> visual text label for the benefit of all users).
> >>>
> >>> Using title in these situations mainly to convey purpose of control to
> >>> non-sighted users is well supported by browsers and AT, both recent
> >>> and legacy ones.
> >>> Title is also available via mouseover to some sighted users who might
> >>> need them.
> >>> I do not recommend using off-screen label: it is more work and code
> >>> and not available to anyone except screen reader / magnification users
> >>> unless CSS is turned off.
> >>> Sailesh Panchang
> >>> Deque Systems
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 11/9/12, Michael R. Burks < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>>> I would like to add that we should code to the standards, not to a
> >>>> specific
> >>>> type of Assistive Technology.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike Burks
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Michael R.
> >>>> Burks
> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 7:51 PM
> >>>> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> >>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>>>
> >>>> It has not been my experience that title attributes work well with
> >>>> Dragon
> >>>>
> >>>> Sincerely,
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike Burks
> >>>> 919-882-1884 - Fax
> >>>> 919-349-6661 - Office
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E.
> >>>> Benson
> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 6:59 PM
> >>>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED> ; WebAIM Discussion List
> >>>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>>>
> >>>> Léonie Watson wrote:
> >>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
default,
> >>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception
> I
> >>>>> think.
> >>>> ZoomText (v9.5 at least) will read the title attribute instead of the
> >>>> label.
> >>>> The same goes with links with a title attribute, it reads the title
> >>>> versus
> >>>> linking words.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Ryan E. Benson
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Léonie Watson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> >>>>> Angela French wrote:
> >>>>> " Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
> >>>>> field and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the
<input>
> >>>>> tag redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words,
would
> >>>>> a screen reader say the word twice?"
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Most screen readers don't acknowledge the title attribute by
default,
> >>>>> although they can be configured to do so. VoiceOver is the exception
> I
> >>>>> think.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Assuming the label is visible, it's worth asking what value the
title
> >>>>> attribute brings in this case?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Léonie.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Angela
> >>>>> French
> >>>>> Sent: 09 November 2012 18:22
> >>>>> To: 'WebAim Forum ( <EMAIL REMOVED> )'
> >>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Is use of <label> and title redundant?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello,
> >>>>> Is the use of a <label> tag to identify association with a text
field
> >>>>> and the simultaneous use of the title attribute in the <input> tag
> >>>>> redundant, such that it should be avoided? In other words, would a
> >>>>> screen reader say the word twice?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Example:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> <label for="searchfield" class="offscreen"> Search</label><input
> >>>>> id="searchfield" type="text" title="Search">
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Angela French
> >>>>> Internet Specialist
> >>>>> State Board for Community and Technical Colleges
> >>>>> 360-704-4316
> >>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>> http://www.checkoutacollege.com/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> list messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>> > >>>> > list
> >>>> messages to <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>>
> >>>> > >>>> > list
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> > > > > > > >
> > > >