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Re: RE: turning off style sheets

for

From: Lori K. Brown
Date: Oct 25, 2002 12:30PM


Mr. Foliot --

Thanks so much!
This is very useful looking stuff.
I currently live and die by the w3c validator upload site, which is
less about accessibility (but does catch when I have mismatched
label tags!), and Bobby to a lesser extent. More tools is always
better.

The one thing no one ever seems to mention is the ability of Mozilla
to simply scale your page, without changing any other setting. I
would think that would be really useful for people who might
otherwise use a screen enlarger or local stylesheet.

Thanks especially for understanding the spirit of my question. I was
sure I was going to get flamed by the true believers.

Lori Kay Brown
User Interface Engineer
SiteScape, Inc.
E-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>


-------- Original Message --------

==> From: "John Foliot - bytown internet" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
==> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:12:17 -0400

Lori,

Most "modern" browsers do support syle sheets, and the W3C urges you
to use them for all of your display considerations. The issue is
more, what happens when a browser which does not support style
sheets hit's your site... what are *they* being served up? Does the
content make sense semantically and structurally? If so, then Bob's
yer Uncle. Generally, the only user agents which do not support
style sheets left are the text only variety, such as Lynx, but also
as mentioned elsewhere other smaller devices such as cell phones and
PDAs. In both instances, the only content which "get's through" is
the text. Ensuring that it is structurally marked up using
appropriate tags (<h1>, <ul>, <ol>, etc.) is the goal of the
requirment.

Now to the next question - can you remove style sheet support in
a "regular" modern browser... to which I'll answer "sorta". I have
collected a number of small testing tools which assist in the
process of testing web pages under development. These tools all
take advantage of the DOM of the IE browser, extending the "right
click" functionality of the browser. One of the tools "removes"
style sheets, however only linked styles... inline styles are not
affected. Anyway, see
http://www.bytowninternet.com/accessibility2_e.html#test

Good Luck.

JF

> > > Dear list: > > I often see responses that are couched in
terms of "what if style > sheets are turned 'off'." I have two
questions about this: > > 1) For the browsers I know, (IE, some
Opera, NN old and new, > Mozilla), one doesn't so much turn
stylesheets 'off', as much as one > substitutes one's own
preferences in a given area (larger text, high > contrast colors,
etc.) Is there in fact a way to turn stylesheets > OFF entirely in
modern browsers, or is it always a case of > substituting some or
all of one's own preferences into a local > stylesheet? > > 2)
Besides accessibility / colorblindness type issues, is there a >
good reason why a user might be doing this? I'm not trying to be >
snotty, I just honestly want to understand if there's a specific >
need being addressed. > > 3) As long as this is hardcore
requirement, isn't CSS-positioning > completely off the table, or
is 'graceful degradation' acceptable? > > If the only reason to bend
over backwards to create presentation > solutions that don't fall
over when style sheets are removed is that > edge-condition
nitpickers are going to give you a hard time for it, > I will be
hard to persuade that it's worth the additional effort. > > Lori Kay
Brown > User Interface Engineer > SiteScape, Inc. > E-mail:
<EMAIL REMOVED> > > > -------- Original Message -------- > >
==> From: "Leo Smith" < <EMAIL REMOVED> > > ==> Date: Fri, 25 Oct
2002 14:21:04 -0400 > > Glenda, > > Jukka's suggestion is a good one
that should work for you, even if > users do not have style sheets
enabled. Essentially, all that you > are hiding with the CSS is the
bullet. If CSS is off, then you will > simply get the bullet
followed by the section (2)(i) which you will > enter textually. > >
You are preserving the structural markup of a list (albeit an >
unordered versus an ordered one), whilst getting the presentation >
that you are looking for, with the addition of a bullet when style >
sheets are switched off - not a big deal. > > My 2 cents... > > Leo.
> > On 24 Oct 2002, at 10:08, Glenda Watson Hyatt wrote: > > >
Thanks for the suggestion, Jukka. However, what happens when a >
uses > is not viewing with stylesheets and thus can't find >
subsection (2)(i)? > I guess I will stick with invalid markup [<p>
> within a <li>], till I > can find a better solution. > > Cheers, >
> Glenda > > > As a workaround, though, you might consider using
<ul> > markup with > > the numbers as explicit content, and a CSS
rule that > suggests > > suppression of bullets: <style
type="text/css"> ul li { > > > list-style-type: none; } </style> >
> ... > > <ul> > > <li>(1) > foo > > <li>(2) bar > > </ul> > > > > -
- > > Leo Smith Web Designer/Developer USM Office of Publications
and > Marketing University of Southern Maine 207-780-4774 > > ----
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives, visit >
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/ > > > ---- > To subscribe,
unsubscribe, or view list archives, > visit
http://www.webaim.org/discussion/ >

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