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Re: complex layout tables

for

From: Steve Faulkner
Date: Jan 30, 2014 2:46AM

thanks Olaf, I am aware of the RFC and what the statements mean.

I have filed a bug against the HTML5 spec
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24447

to make the advice against table use for layout more explicit and to expand
the explanations of the issues.

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;


On 29 January 2014 20:59, Olaf Drümmer < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Regarding the use of the word "should" - here is an excerpt from [RFC2119].
> "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate Requirement Levels, S. Bradner.
> IETF""
>
> > 3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
> > may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
> > particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
> > carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
>
> so given there are valid reasons, it can be acceptable - on a normative
> level - to use a layout table.
>
> HTML5 then proceeds - in a normative (and actually absolutely strict - by
> means of the word MUST) manner - what to do exactly when using a layout
> table (i.e. use role = "presentation" attribute)
>
>
> I would see the task of the accessibility community in ensuring that
> content in a layout table is presented - by user agents and AT - in an
> accessible fashion. Given that such accessibility can technically be
> achieved I have difficulty seeing why banning layout tables anyway is
> deemed acceptable.
>
>
> Olaf
>
>
>
> On 29 Jan 2014, at 21:26, Steve Faulkner < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > On 29 January 2014 20:00, Olaf Drümmer < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> >> I actually do dispute that. HTML 5 even tells you how to do layout
> tables:
> >
> >
> > patrick is right, tables are for data, that is the semantics they convey,
> > when the normative advice in the spec is ignored one repair technique is
> to
> > remove the semantics with role=presentation.
> > HTML5 says<
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#the-table-element
> >
> > :
> >
> > "Tables should not be used as layout aids. Historically, many Web authors
> > have tables in HTML as a way to control their page layout making it
> > difficult to extract tabular data from such documents. In particular,
> users
> > of accessibility tools, like screen readers, are likely to find it very
> > difficult to navigate pages with tables used for layout. If a table is to
> > be used for layout it must be marked with the attribute
> role="presentation"
> > for a user agent to properly represent the table to an assistive
> technology
> > and to properly convey the intent of the author to tools that wish to
> > extract tabular data from the document."
> >
> > note the SHOULD NOT in the first sentence is a normative statement (as is
> > the MUST in the third sentence). In other words use of tables for layout
> is
> > NOT RECOMMENDED, but the spec acknowledges that tables are misused and
> > provides advice on a repair mechanism. This advice could probably do with
> > strengthening and expanding.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > SteveF
> > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>;
> > > > > > >
> > > >