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Re: Untagged PDF doc with table structure

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From: Chagnon | PubCom
Date: Feb 20, 2015 9:58AM

Jon wrote: " As far as "InDesign Magazine" goes, I only know of two magazines, which are InDesign Secrets (http://indesignsecrets.com/issues ) and Layers ( http://layersmagazine.com/)."

Wow. It really hasn't been so long ago that I would forget who signed the check I received for writing the article!

InDesign Magazine is published by http://indesignsecrets.com/issues
InDesignSecrets is the website, while InDesign Magazine is one of its publications. Take a closer look at the flag on the magazine's cover. It says...ta-da! InDesign Magazine! :smile:

At the time I wrote the article for them, they were independent of each other, but in the ensuing years, David Blatner's company has consolidated them under the InDesignSecrets brand, which also includes CreativePro.

--Bevi Chagnon

-----Original Message-----
From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Jon Metz
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 9:32 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Untagged PDF doc with table structure

Howdy,

Hopefully I can shed some light on this topic a bit more diplomatically.
InDesign has a much stronger engine for making accessible PDFs since version 5.5, and use of the Structure pane became a deprecated method within the workflow. The structure pane is still useful in XML workflows (my knowledge only extends to automation tasks when using Excel or Catalog data and a way to print). However, using the Structure pane now is a waste of time.

Using the Articles panel is a necessary method of using the correct reading order (nothing to do with the panel in Acrobat) and structure for the tags.
I think the comment "isn't very helpful" is perhaps not really the best way to describe it. Like, you expect there to be some more stuff that you need to do aside from selecting text boxes on the page and clicking a button, but that's really all you can do. Problems arise when you need to include content outside of the added text boxes, as they end up outside of the final structure. This is probably what was meant when longer documents were mentioned.

If you change your Paragraph Style names to be the Tag names (P, H1, H2, BlockQuote, Code, etc) allowed by the ISO Standard, then they'll be included as actual Tag names and no Role Mapping will be required when you move to Acrobat Pro. Usually you can use Character Styles to dramatically change the visual display of tag styles. InDesign CC does a wonderful job tagging lists appropriately.

Avoiding the Structure pane now allows people to focus on using the actual tools of InDesign. Like most accessibility (I think Whitney Q actually brought this up on the list a long time ago), setting things up correctly the first time will greatly reduce the amount of work needed to remediate later. Any designer who argues that accessibility isn't their job can focus instead on using the tools in InDesign that they should be using (A source of pet peeves for any designer who receives another's files!).

Regarding the statement someone made about using the Structure pane to see the structure of tags, my recommendation would be to use the Tag panel in Acrobat Pro for that. As a technical aside, with the inclusion of using PDF/UA as a technical requirement of revised 508 guidelines, there is going to be a need to do some advanced tricks in Acrobat to achieve this. When that happens, it's going to be important to focus on keeping up with the current methodology for fixing PDFs, so people remediating aren't likely to be confused even further. Just a suggestion really...

As far as "InDesign Magazine" goes, I only know of two magazines, which are InDesign Secrets (http://indesignsecrets.com/issues) and Layers ( http://layersmagazine.com/).

There's also Adobe:
http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products/indesign.html

And I can also help if you want to contact me directly. :smile:

Best,
Jonathan

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> This will be my final note on this thread, since I have gotten a
> number of personal notes regarding my comments. My point is simply
> this: while inDesign can make accessible PDFs, it is no where near being user friendly.
> Adding somebody's lack of knowledge of accessibility, just compounds
> the issue some magnitude I don't know how to compute. Also, adding to
> the pile that a fair number of graphic artists I have worked see
> accessibility "not their issue." I know that this is something different in itself.
>
> Bevi said:
> > Since version 5.5, there's been no need to use the structure pane
> > for
> accessible PDFs from InDesign.
>
> then
>
> >The articles panel isn't very helpful in most documents, like long docs.
> >You have to watch your story threading, anchored objects and layers
> throughout to get the correct tag structure, but that's just InDesign
> 101 that you should be doing anyway.
> >If you've used InDesign's tools correctly, the tag order will follow
> exactly what you've laid out.
>
> If I missed something, please let me know. There are two ways to
> effect the output, the structure pane and the articles pane. So post
> 5.5, the structure pane doesn't need to be used, but usually the
> articles pane isn't helpful? So what should be used to determine the
> output without making and double checking the PDF? While it has been
> over a year since I read stuff, most documentation I read basically
> said not to touch the structure pane, only the articles pane. I found
> one tutorial that had step-by-step instructions. Following these, I think I gave myself score in the 70s.
> Trying myself, the score was much worse. Scrapping the new method, and
> using the structure pane, it was in the low 90s - which is the norm
> for me, since there is always something needing a tweak in Acrobat.
>
> > Edition #46 February-March 2012 at www.InDesignMagazine.com
> I get a "buy this domain" type page for the linkk.
>
> --
> Ryan E. Benson
>
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 11:33 PM, Chagnon | PubCom
> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > No, not entirely.
> > The articles panel isn't very helpful in most documents, like long docs.
> > You have to watch your story threading, anchored objects and layers
> > throughout to get the correct tag structure, but that's just
> > InDesign 101 that you should be doing anyway.
> > If you've used InDesign's tools correctly, the tag order will follow
> > exactly what you've laid out.
> > Using the structure pane is a royal pain, as in PITA. It drops XML
> > tags into the document which then get royally botched as normal
> > copy/paste editing actions are done during production. And what a
> > slowdown on the computer!
> >
> > IMHO, that's a pretty lousy way to use InDesign! For XML, yes, which
> > is what it was designed to do. But that overhead isn't needed for
> > accessible PDFs. I'd rather do other things with my time than wait
> > from my 500-page government document to refresh the structure pane!
> >
> > --Bevi Chagnon
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 10:43 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Untagged PDF doc with table structure
> >
> > > Since version 5.5, there's been no need to use the structure pane
> > > for
> > accessible PDFs from InDesign.
> >
> > Bevi, I think what you are saying is that you can use the articles
> > pane and not worry about the structure pane as the article pane sets
> > the
> content
> > order and that's all that really matters sense the nested isn't needed.
> > While that may be generally true I find it helpful to see the
> > structure panel and the tags that will be generated as it gives me
> > an idea of the order of show each element -- perhaps I'm just use to it though.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > --
> > Jonathan Avila
> > Chief Accessibility Officer
> > SSB BART Group
> > <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > 703-637-8957 (o)
> > Follow us: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn | Blog | Newsletter
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Chagnon | PubCom
> > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 10:34 PM
> > To: 'WebAIM Discussion List'
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Untagged PDF doc with table structure
> >
> > Since version 5.5, there's been no need to use the structure pane
> > for accessible PDFs from InDesign. Just use the tools built into
> > current versions of InDesign. It's worth upgrading to the latest
> > version of InDesign, ver. CS 2014, because the export of accessible
> > PDFs is more accurate. You're spending an awful lot more labor doing
> > it the old way
> with
> > an outdated version of the software.
> >
> > Accessible PDFs don't need a nested, XML-like structure because at
> > this time, the PDF's tag tree is read sequentially, so which tag is
> > nested inside which is ignored by screen readers and other AT.
> >
> > You can read a detailed tutorial I wrote for InDesign Magazine a few
> years
> > ago for step-by-step instructions: Edition #46 February-March 2012
> > at www.InDesignMagazine.com Today's InDesign creates a more
> > accurate PDF now than when I wrote this article, but the steps and
> > tools remain the
> same.
> >
> > Repeating what I wrote in a previous post regarding tags from InDesign:
> >
> > In InDesign, certain tags must be set in the export tag options for
> > each Paragraph Style:
> > Headings 1 through 6.
> > Artifacts (for text).
> > For everything else, leave the export tag options set to Auto. Auto
> > does
> > recognize:
> > - Tables (and if you've set repeating headers, it will put
> > in the TH tag).
> > - Lists, both numbered and bulleted, as long as you've
> > formatted them with a paragraph style setting bullets/numbers. No hand formatting.
> > - Hyperlinks if you've used the hyperlink utility.
> > - TOCs if you've used InDesign's TOC utility.
> > - Figures (add the Alt-text through the Object Export
> > Options utility or through Adobe Bridge).
> > - And pretty much the core of any InDesign document.
> >
> > Except for grouped items, anchored text frames, un-hyperlinked
> > footnotes, un-hyperlinked indexes, and a whole lot more advanced
> > features, the
> basics
> > of an InDesign document are tagged correctly in the PDF.
> >
> > And I have a hands-on class in creating accessible InDesign layouts
> > &
> PDFs
> > in a few weeks. Two seats are available for online distance learners.
> > Contact me off-list if you'd like more information.
> >
> > --Bevi Chagnon
> >
> > — — —
> > Bevi Chagnon | www.PubCom.com
> > Consultants, Trainers, Designers, and Developers For publishing
> > technologies
> > | Acrobat PDF | Digital Media | XML and Automated Workflows GPO |
> > | Print
> > | | Desktop Publishing | Sec. 508 Accessibility | EPUBs
> > — — —
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: <EMAIL REMOVED> [mailto:
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On Behalf Of Ryan E. Benson
> > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 8:48 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Untagged PDF doc with table structure
> >
> > >Which makes 20. There are a number of inline styles that aren't
> > supported (e.g. code, quote) and there may be others that are
> > supported that I'm not sure of (e.g. TOC).
> > >I think that the situation is a little better than you are
> characterizing.
> >
> > I haven't dug around in the new docs, but the old documents said, to
> > quickly know what tags INDD will reliably carry over to a PDF is to
> > run
> the
> > untagged items via the structure pane. This gives you P H
> > H1-H6
> > Article
> > Artifact
> > Root/Document
> >
> > Other things like tables and lists were kind of a flip of a coin. I
> > noticed better support for lists in CS6, but this is akin to "don't
> > worry about it, just trust us." However, I will mention that if you
> > click the list icon, it will be brought over as a list. You cannot
> > do this with headings from what I can tell, and didn't touch tables.
> > Working with graphic artists, they are less likely to do this,
> > because 1- their formal training didn't cover this
> > - not Adobe's fault. 2- they only have a few days to do a job, so
> > setting up stuff on every project is beyond a chore.
> >
> > --
> > Ryan E. Benson
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Ryan,
> > > Comments below.
> > >
> > > I was trying to cut out the jargon. Most people do not know there
> > > are styles and tags within inDesign, in my experience. If they
> > > just make a style, and lazily name it h1, that gets exported and
> > > mapped to P - in the two sample files I tried - in CS6. The user
> > > has 3 options. 1- properly named styles. 2- Open up the style,
> > > choose the right tag via export tag options. 3- open the tags
> > > pane, use the map styles to tags option, and map it. This assumes
> > > the user opened up the structure pane, and used the "add untagged
> > > items" option. This also creates the known tags to inDesign - which is 9.
> > >
> > > > InDesign supports a a lot of standard PDF tags.
> > > 9 of 34 is 26%. Not sure if you call that a lot. Now if a user
> > > sets up their document properly, and use the built in features, of
> > > course that goes up. In my experience, working with designers, who
> > > have a degree, and trained inDesign, don't do or know this.
> > >
> > > Off hand I count:
> > > P
> > > H
> > > H1
> > > H2
> > > H3
> > > H4
> > > H5
> > > H6
> > > TABLE
> > > THEAD
> > > TBODY
> > > TR
> > > TH
> > > TD
> > > LIST
> > > LI
> > > SPAN
> > > Document
> > > Article
> > > Section
> > >
> > >
> > > Which makes 20. There are a number of inline styles that aren't
> > > supported (e.g. code, quote) and there may be others that are
> > > supported that I'm not sure of (e.g. TOC).
> > >
> > > I think that the situation is a little better than you are
> > characterizing.
> > >
> > > AWK
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ryan E. Benson
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 6:13 PM, Olaf Drümmer < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Ryan,
> > > >
> > > > On 18 Feb 2015, at 23:50, Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > InDesign only recognizes a handful of standard PDF tags. I
> > > > > can't find the list right now, but I am pretty sure it is in the help.
> > > > > InDesign knows <Table>, <Tr> and <Td>, for example, but not
> > > > > <TH> or something like
> > > > that.
> > > >
> > > > it does handle <TH> quite well (at least for column headers).
> > > >
> > > > > PDF tags are case sensitive, so if you create an h1 Tag for
> > > > > your inDesign document, it gets mapped to the <P> tag in the PDF.
> > > > > However, creating the
> > > > > H1 tag in inDesign, it correctly gets mapped to H1 in the PDF.
> > > >
> > > > nope. What you actually do is do assign a certain tag to your
> > > > style sheet which then gets used during export (and via role
> > > > mapping in the resulting PDF. The list offered here consists of
> > > > only H1 through
> > > > H6 and P (yep, that's it, except for <H> which you do not want
> > > > to use, and
> > > 'Artifact'
> > > > which is not a tag, but can be handy at times). Most other stuff
> > > > is just handled properly by Indesign, at least for stuff like
> > > > lists and tables (with some limitations - e.g. no row headers,
> > > > no complex table
> > > > structures) and footnotes and figures and links and (CS 6 or
> > > > newer) form
> > > fields.
> > > >
> > > > Some of the glaring omissions are lack of support for table of
> > > > contents (TOC / TOCI), something as easy as Caption, or
> > > > BlockQuote, Quote, Formula (accompanied by lack of support for
> > > > something like
> > > MathML) and a few others.
> > > >
> > > > So the statement
> > > > > InDesign only recognizes a handful of standard PDF tags.
> > > >
> > > > has to be turned into its opposite:
> > > > > InDesign supports a a lot of standard PDF tags.
> > > >
> > > > with the following addition:
> > > > > With some very unfortunate [seemingly easy to
> > > > > implement/support]
> > > > omissions, like support for Caption, or BlockQuote, Quote,
> > > > Formula and a few others.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Olaf