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Re: webaim-forum-d Digest V2003 #43

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From: Joy M. Hyzny
Date: Feb 24, 2003 3:06PM


I also have a question pertaining to online forms. I've been searching
through information for coding examples on how to best implement accessible
drop down menus. I looked in the W3C archives and also came across the
following site: http://jibbering.com/accessibility/menue.html. Any other
ideas or coding examples?

I appreciate your feedback. Thanks!

Joy Hyzny
University of Illinois at Chicago
(312) 413-0886


At 02:16 PM 2/24/03 -0700, <EMAIL REMOVED> wrote:
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>webaim-forum-d Digest Volume 2003 : Issue 43
>
>Today's Topics:
> RE: JAWS and online forms question [ "Miller, Lisa F. (LMS)"
> <millerlf@y ]
> Re: JAWS and online forms question [ "Mark Rew" < <EMAIL REMOVED> > ]
> Re: JAWS and online forms question [ Andrew Kirkpatrick
> <andrew_kirkpatr ]
> RE: Hidden Frames and Screen Readers [ "Hoffman, David"
> <David.Hoffman@ssa ]
> Re: Hidden Frames and Screen Readers [ "Josh Richards"
> <jrichards_@hotmail ]
>Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:16:16 -0500
>From: "Miller, Lisa F. (LMS)" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>To: "' <EMAIL REMOVED> '" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>Subject: RE: JAWS and online forms question
>Message-ID: < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>Reply-To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Andrew,
>
>The link you included is very similar to the page we are building:
>http://www.ma.doe.gov/energy/web.html. We are reproducing an official
>government form on the web, and must retain all the information available on
>the original form, so we do not have the option to condense any of the text
>- it is required to look as much like the paper form as possible. The site
>is required to be 508 compliant, which has been defined by the client as
>being JAWS complient.
>
>We would like to make the site as 'usable' as possible, but finding 508
>compliant examples which do more than a 'Contact Me' page has been
>difficult. If anyone could point me to any good sites, especially in
>regards to complex forms, it would be most appreciated. I have passed the
>suggestions from this forum on to the programmer, and hope to get some
>feedback from him today or tomorrow.
>
>Thanks for your help,
>Lisa
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [SMTP: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 9:53 PM
> > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Subject: Re: JAWS and online forms question
> >
> > Lisa,
> > This is a good example of a usability problem for people using assistive
> > technology. The information is
> > accessible - the user could get it if he knew it was there, but your
> > testing is indicating that a problem exists
> > and that is worth listening to.
> >
> > You could either take the suggestion to use fieldset and legend, or you
> > could indicate somehow that
> > additional information for a particular input is available in the label.
> > If you indicated at the top of the form at
> > an asterisk in the label indicates additional information about the input
> > is available just above the input, it
> > might work for some users, but you'll probably get lots of junky data from
> > people who don't understand what
> > is going on or use the additioanl info.
> >
> > If you are talking about a form like the one at:
> > http://www.ma.doe.gov/energy/web.html
> > (which seems to fit your description), I don't think that the extra text
> > would be necessary if the labels on the
> > inputs were more descriptive. I don't believe that I could complete this
> > form successfully - there is extra
> > text, but I don't get what I'm supposed to enter into the form.
> >
> > If you send the list a link to a sample page, I'm sure you'd get lots of
> > advice.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > 2/20/2003 4:34:51 PM, "Miller, Lisa F. (LMS)" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >We are developing an online form, and are having problems navigating thru
> > >the from with JAWS. There are a number of labeled input fields, which
> > each
> > >have text instructions preceeding them, such as:
> > >
> > >===
> > >This is a long instruction on how to correctly fill out field 1, plus any
> > >reference information which might be needed.
> > >
> > >Field1 Label: ___________
> > >
> > >This is a long instruction on how to correctly fill out field 2, plus any
> > >reference information which might be needed.
> > >
> > >Field2 Label: ____________
> > >
> > >===
> > >
> > >When our tester navigates this page with JAWS, the instructions lines are
> > >skipped because it is navigating thru the input fields only - to get the
> > >text, he has to change modes, which a blind person would not know to do -
> > >there is no indication to the user that the text is there.
> > >
> > >Right now the page is built with one set of FORM tags - is there any way,
> > >other than wrapping each individual input field with its own FORM tag, to
> > >get JAWS to read the instruction text? We are debating placing the text
> > >into read only textareas, but this would not be our first choice. Has
> > >anyone else ran across this - maybe already solved this for us?
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >
> > >Lisa F. Miller
> > >BWXT Y-12 - Technical Computing
> > >Email: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > >
> > >
> > >----
> > >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> > >visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> > >
> > >
> > Andrew
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
> > 125 Western Ave.
> > Boston, MA 02134
> > E-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Web site: ncam.wgbh.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
>----
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:33:00 -0500
>From: "Mark Rew" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>To: < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>Subject: Re: JAWS and online forms question
>Message-ID: <005301c2dc09$3fc867f0$98185a8c@CIOHSS17158>
>Reply-To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Lisa,
>
>Take a look at the following site:
>http://www.gsa.gov/forms
>
>Almost all of these forms should have been tested with Jaws. The hard part
>for a Jaws user is the form to download the special software.
>
>Mark
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Miller, Lisa F. (LMS)" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>To: < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 8:16 AM
>Subject: RE: JAWS and online forms question
>
>
> > Andrew,
> >
> > The link you included is very similar to the page we are building:
> > http://www.ma.doe.gov/energy/web.html. We are reproducing an official
> > government form on the web, and must retain all the information
> available on
> > the original form, so we do not have the option to condense any of the text
> > - it is required to look as much like the paper form as possible. The site
> > is required to be 508 compliant, which has been defined by the client as
> > being JAWS complient.
> >
> > We would like to make the site as 'usable' as possible, but finding 508
> > compliant examples which do more than a 'Contact Me' page has been
> > difficult. If anyone could point me to any good sites, especially in
> > regards to complex forms, it would be most appreciated. I have passed the
> > suggestions from this forum on to the programmer, and hope to get some
> > feedback from him today or tomorrow.
> >
> > Thanks for your help,
> > Lisa
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [SMTP: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 9:53 PM
> > > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > Subject: Re: JAWS and online forms question
> > >
> > > Lisa,
> > > This is a good example of a usability problem for people using assistive
> > > technology. The information is
> > > accessible - the user could get it if he knew it was there, but your
> > > testing is indicating that a problem exists
> > > and that is worth listening to.
> > >
> > > You could either take the suggestion to use fieldset and legend, or you
> > > could indicate somehow that
> > > additional information for a particular input is available in the label.
> > > If you indicated at the top of the form at
> > > an asterisk in the label indicates additional information about the input
> > > is available just above the input, it
> > > might work for some users, but you'll probably get lots of junky data
> from
> > > people who don't understand what
> > > is going on or use the additioanl info.
> > >
> > > If you are talking about a form like the one at:
> > > http://www.ma.doe.gov/energy/web.html
> > > (which seems to fit your description), I don't think that the extra text
> > > would be necessary if the labels on the
> > > inputs were more descriptive. I don't believe that I could complete this
> > > form successfully - there is extra
> > > text, but I don't get what I'm supposed to enter into the form.
> > >
> > > If you send the list a link to a sample page, I'm sure you'd get lots of
> > > advice.
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > > 2/20/2003 4:34:51 PM, "Miller, Lisa F. (LMS)" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >We are developing an online form, and are having problems navigating
> thru
> > > >the from with JAWS. There are a number of labeled input fields, which
> > > each
> > > >have text instructions preceeding them, such as:
> > > >
> > > >===
> > > >This is a long instruction on how to correctly fill out field 1,
> plus any
> > > >reference information which might be needed.
> > > >
> > > >Field1 Label: ___________
> > > >
> > > >This is a long instruction on how to correctly fill out field 2,
> plus any
> > > >reference information which might be needed.
> > > >
> > > >Field2 Label: ____________
> > > >
> > > >===
> > > >
> > > >When our tester navigates this page with JAWS, the instructions
> lines are
> > > >skipped because it is navigating thru the input fields only - to get the
> > > >text, he has to change modes, which a blind person would not know to
> do -
> > > >there is no indication to the user that the text is there.
> > > >
> > > >Right now the page is built with one set of FORM tags - is there any
> way,
> > > >other than wrapping each individual input field with its own FORM
> tag, to
> > > >get JAWS to read the instruction text? We are debating placing the text
> > > >into read only textareas, but this would not be our first choice. Has
> > > >anyone else ran across this - maybe already solved this for us?
> > > >
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >Lisa F. Miller
> > > >BWXT Y-12 - Technical Computing
> > > >Email: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----
> > > >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> > > >visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew Kirkpatrick
> > > CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
> > > 125 Western Ave.
> > > Boston, MA 02134
> > > E-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > > Web site: ncam.wgbh.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----
> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> > > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
>
>
>----
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 08:45:00 -0500
>From: Andrew Kirkpatrick < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>Subject: Re: JAWS and online forms question
>Message-id: < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>Reply-To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>
>Lisa,
>In that case, you might want to consider using the title attribute on the
><input> tags to provide clear labels for the fields.
>
>Some fields (name, email address, organization, please type your message
>here) can easily use the text available in a <label> tag.
>
>Other fields, such as "relationship" need more information and this could be
>provided in the title -- <input title="relationship to organization">.
>Similarly, "purpose for message", "topic of message", "message subject"
>could be used for other fields. (why not use the topic and purpose as the
>message subject?)
>
>The field that I have the most difficulty with is "capacity". I can't
>figure out how it is different from relationship. In any case, the label
>"capacity" seems insufficient. Maybe the label should be "In what capacity
>are you writing?" or "Who I am".
>
>AWK
>
>On 2/24/03 8:16 AM, "Miller, Lisa F. (LMS)" < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > Andrew,
> >
> > The link you included is very similar to the page we are building:
> > http://www.ma.doe.gov/energy/web.html. We are reproducing an official
> > government form on the web, and must retain all the information
> available on
> > the original form, so we do not have the option to condense any of the text
> > - it is required to look as much like the paper form as possible. The site
> > is required to be 508 compliant, which has been defined by the client as
> > being JAWS complient.
> >
> > We would like to make the site as 'usable' as possible, but finding 508
> > compliant examples which do more than a 'Contact Me' page has been
> > difficult. If anyone could point me to any good sites, especially in
> > regards to complex forms, it would be most appreciated. I have passed the
> > suggestions from this forum on to the programmer, and hope to get some
> > feedback from him today or tomorrow.
> >
> > Thanks for your help,
> > Lisa
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Andrew Kirkpatrick [SMTP: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 9:53 PM
> >> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> Subject: Re: JAWS and online forms question
> >>
> >> Lisa,
> >> This is a good example of a usability problem for people using assistive
> >> technology. The information is
> >> accessible - the user could get it if he knew it was there, but your
> >> testing is indicating that a problem exists
> >> and that is worth listening to.
> >>
> >> You could either take the suggestion to use fieldset and legend, or you
> >> could indicate somehow that
> >> additional information for a particular input is available in the label.
> >> If you indicated at the top of the form at
> >> an asterisk in the label indicates additional information about the input
> >> is available just above the input, it
> >> might work for some users, but you'll probably get lots of junky data from
> >> people who don't understand what
> >> is going on or use the additioanl info.
> >>
> >> If you are talking about a form like the one at:
> >> http://www.ma.doe.gov/energy/web.html
> >> (which seems to fit your description), I don't think that the extra text
> >> would be necessary if the labels on the
> >> inputs were more descriptive. I don't believe that I could complete this
> >> form successfully - there is extra
> >> text, but I don't get what I'm supposed to enter into the form.
> >>
> >> If you send the list a link to a sample page, I'm sure you'd get lots of
> >> advice.
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >> 2/20/2003 4:34:51 PM, "Miller, Lisa F. (LMS)" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> We are developing an online form, and are having problems navigating thru
> >>> the from with JAWS. There are a number of labeled input fields, which
> >> each
> >>> have text instructions preceeding them, such as:
> >>>
> >>> ===
> >>> This is a long instruction on how to correctly fill out field 1, plus any
> >>> reference information which might be needed.
> >>>
> >>> Field1 Label: ___________
> >>>
> >>> This is a long instruction on how to correctly fill out field 2, plus any
> >>> reference information which might be needed.
> >>>
> >>> Field2 Label: ____________
> >>>
> >>> ===
> >>>
> >>> When our tester navigates this page with JAWS, the instructions lines are
> >>> skipped because it is navigating thru the input fields only - to get the
> >>> text, he has to change modes, which a blind person would not know to do -
> >>> there is no indication to the user that the text is there.
> >>>
> >>> Right now the page is built with one set of FORM tags - is there any way,
> >>> other than wrapping each individual input field with its own FORM tag, to
> >>> get JAWS to read the instruction text? We are debating placing the text
> >>> into read only textareas, but this would not be our first choice. Has
> >>> anyone else ran across this - maybe already solved this for us?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Lisa F. Miller
> >>> BWXT Y-12 - Technical Computing
> >>> Email: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----
> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> >>> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andrew Kirkpatrick
> >> CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
> >> 125 Western Ave.
> >> Boston, MA 02134
> >> E-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> Web site: ncam.wgbh.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----
> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> >> visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
> >
> > ----
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
> > visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
> >
>
>--
>Andrew Kirkpatrick
>CPB/WGBH National Center for Accessible Media
>125 Western Ave.
>Boston, MA 02134
>E-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>Web site: ncam.wgbh.org
>
>617-300-4420 (direct voice/FAX)
>617-300-3400 (main NCAM)
>617-300-2489 (TTY)
>
>WGBH enriches people's lives through programs and services that educate,
>inspire, and entertain, fostering citizenship and culture, the joy of
>learning, and the power of diverse perspectives.
>
>
>
>----
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 09:53:19 -0500
>From: "Hoffman, David" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>To: "' <EMAIL REMOVED> '" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>Subject: RE: Hidden Frames and Screen Readers
>Message-ID: < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>Reply-To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hidden Frames are one of many web application obstacles that caused me to
>write the CSUN 2003 paper/presentation: CUSTOMIZING THE JAWS BROWSER SCRIPT
>FOR WEB APPLICATIONS www.csun.edu/cod/conf/2003/proceedings/62.htm. While
>the paper does not directly address the specific problem of hidden frames,
>the following explains how we partially addressed this issue for JAWS using
>JavaScript and how Freedom Scientific resolved this issue in JAWS 4.51:
>
>Many web applications utilize hidden frames. These frames are either used
>for background purposes or are only displayed on some screens and hidden on
>others -- without removing the frame and losing the information within them.
>The common method used to hide the frames is by setting the height or width
>of the frame to 0 or 0%. Unfortunately JAWS (as of version 4.50) ignores the
>fact that the frame is not visually displayed. This causes confusion, since
>JAWS reads these hidden frames and includes them in the list of available
>frames. Furthermore, hidden frames sometimes contain links. JAWS 4.50 treats
>these links as any other links, ignoring the fact that the frames are
>hidden.
>
>JavaScript can be used to improve the situation, by turning off the display
>in a frame, as follows:
>
>HTML code: <BODY onload="disableFrame();">
>
>Associated JavaScript code:
>
>function disableFrame()
> {
> top.document.all.NameOfHiddenFrame.style.display = 'none';
> }
>
>Benefits: JAWS 4.51 - Ignores the hidden frames completely, links, frames,
>and all!
> JAWS 4.50 - Ignores the links from the hidden frames.
> JAWS 4.02 - Ignores the hidden frame when announcing new web
>pages.
> Still includes them in the Frames List and reads them.
>
>However, JAWS 4.51 (just released) does not require this JavaScript
>technique. Freedom Scientific responded to our requests regarding this web
>application situation. Now, if a frame has a height or width of 0 or 0%,
>JAWS 4.51 users will not hear about the frame. If the frame is not meant to
>be seen, it is not meant to be heard either.
>
>Thank you Freedom Scientific!
>
>Take care,
>David
>
>David Hoffman
>IT Accessibility Specialist
>MILVETS Systems Technology, Inc.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Josh Richards [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
>Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 6:27 PM
>To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>Subject: Hidden Frames and Screen Readers
>
>
>I work for a small, 508 compliant distance learning company. We've been
>striving to improve our product for use with screen readers, but one
>unfortunate annoyance is our use of hidden frames in the product.
>
>Removing these frames would require a lot of work, so I would love to know
>if there are any tips for hiding frames from screen readers. The goal is to
>reduce the amount of non-essential information read aloud to the users so
>they can focus more on what is important.
>
>Does anyone know if there are certain doctypes or custom tags that can be
>used to indicate "hidden" information to screen readers?
>
>thanks.
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
>----
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>
>
>----
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/
>Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 17:24:09 +0000
>From: "Josh Richards" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>Subject: Re: Hidden Frames and Screen Readers
>Message-ID: < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>Reply-To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>Terence,
>
>First of all, thank you for your reply. Perhaps this email will clarify our
>current issues with frames and screen readers.
>
>Our software uses both nested frames and "hidden" frames--frames that are
>not visually perceptible to sighted users. The main console in our product
>appears as a single element to sighted users, but in actuality it is
>composed of several distinct frames.
>
>Unfortunately, we can not completely remove our dependence on these frames.
>As an example, we use "hidden" frames to save state information across a
>user's session even when other frames are unloaded.
>
>It should be technically possible to redo most of product using CSS and
>JavaScript, but this would require extensive coding and debugging; however,
>if it is our only option it will have to be done...
>
>Ideally, I would like to see screen readers support some method[s] to
>suppress the reading/parsing of pages/frames as decided by the developer.
>Perhaps custom doc-types, dummy tags, or even special case certain titles,
>for example, any objects with a title="ignore" could be agreed upon by the
>screen-reader developers as a do-not-read object. Something as simple as
>this might have some real impact and help improve the web experience for
>assisted web viewers.
>
>If any other developers have encountered similar problems, I'd love to hear
>about your solutions.
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
>----
>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or view list archives,
>visit http://www.webaim.org/discussion/



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