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Re: Accessible Datepicker & NVDA Support

for

From: Mike Barlow
Date: May 23, 2016 5:12AM

Thanks Bryan, all good to know.
On May 23, 2016 1:58 AM, "Bryan Garaventa" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

> That's true, though it's important for everybody to keep in mind that we
> are in the process of rewriting the APG as version 1.1, which is meant to
> replace the 1.0 draft that was never truly finished, viewable at
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-wai-aria-practices-1.1-20160317/
>
> For example, we still need to review the Datepicker section at
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-wai-aria-practices-1.1-20160317/#h-datepicker
> Which we have not gotten to as yet.
>
>
>
> Bryan Garaventa
> Accessibility Fellow
> SSB BART Group, Inc.
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> 415.624.2709 (o)
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> Behalf Of Mike Barlow
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 1:55 PM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible Datepicker & NVDA Support
>
> Bryan - Although, after my previous posting on this topic, I notice that
> there is an "aria-practices" document that has the "recommended(?)"
> keyboard interaction for a Date Picker Widget that was put up by the W3C -
> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/#datepicker (though I still
> maintain that Alt-Y and Alt-M could be used to allow a user to edit the
> month/year of a date)
>
> *Mike Barlow*
> Web Application Developer
> Web Accessibility/Section 508 SME
>
> Lancaster, Pa 17601
> Office: 732.835-7557
> Cell: 732.682.8226
> e-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Mike Barlow < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > Bryan, nice looking Date Picker but one thing I would probably do
> > would be to add a couple of other keyboard shortcuts and enhancements:
> > Alt-Y - Puts you into a "Year" field where the year is displayed and
> > allow you to enter a specific year (for example if I have to
> > "Alt-PageDown" from
> > 2016 to 1950 that's a lot of keystrokes Alt-M - Same for a "Month"
> > field.
> >
> > And is there any "standard" way (other than simply putting the
> > instructions on the page) to inform a user what the keyboard shortcuts
> > are for a particular custom widget like this?
> >
> > *Mike Barlow*
> > Web Application Developer
> > Web Accessibility/Section 508 SME
> >
> > Lancaster, Pa 17601
> > Office: 732.835-7557
> > Cell: 732.682.8226
> > e-mail: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Bryan Garaventa <
> > <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks, that does help.
> >>
> >> I see what you mean about the date format, though this is challenging
> >> because this is totally customizable in the setup, where a developer
> >> can literally do whatever they wish, such as "Saturday March 15,
> >> 2018", "2017-03-15", "03/15/2017", or anything else, and this can be
> >> tied to individual select elements for Month Day and Year, or to an
> >> edit field such as this. So writing an algorithm to predict anything
> >> a developer wants to do is impossible. That being said though, it is
> >> possible to manually set a date within the datepicker JavaScript
> >> object, so I can write instructions for doing this with a test page.
> >> Also putting a placeholder with the date string format would probably
> help, so I'll change this later this week.
> >>
> >> Regarding the keystrokes, it is true there are a lot, yet this
> >> difficulty will be the same for all date pickers out there. I'll look
> >> into adding a help icon that can be used to pop these open, which
> should help.
> >>
> >> I'll look into the other observations too, there is likely a way at
> >> present to control the datepicker from the edit field now, though I
> >> will need to build this from scratch. Even if I do this though,
> >> users still will not automatically know what all of the keystrokes
> >> are accept through trial and error, the same as all such datepickers
> out there.
> >>
> >> FYI, you can scan through the years by holding down Alt+PageUp or
> >> Alt+PageDown.
> >>
> >>
> >> Bryan Garaventa
> >> Accessibility Fellow
> >> SSB BART Group, Inc.
> >> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> 415.624.2709 (o)
> >> www.SSBBartGroup.com
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> >> Behalf Of Chaals McCathie Nevile
> >> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 1:43 AM
> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible Datepicker & NVDA Support
> >>
> >> Hi Bryan,
> >>
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2016 08:52:36 -0000, Bryan Garaventa <
> >> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Chaals,
> >> >
> >> > " Figuring out what makes an accessible date picker, and finding a
> >> > *really* good one, gives us insight into quite a lot of complex
> >> > problems."
> >> >
> >> > Please test the following when you have a chance, it would be good
> >> > to get your opinion on this one.
> >> > http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Date%20Pickers/ARIA%2
> >> > 0Da
> >> > te%20Picker%20(Basic)/demo.htm
> >>
> >> There's a lot to like, obviously. But some things are still really
> >> quite hard.
> >>
> >> As an example, I tried to select my birthday - if you want to send me
> >> a card, please ask…. It seemed likely that I could put in a date, by
> >> hand, and although there was no clue about the format I had hoped I
> >> would get something in the right year when I popped up the date picker
> widget.
> >> Instead it takes dozens of keystrokes, most with a 3-finger
> >> combination, and I have to know the keyboard shortcut - which is
> >> unannounced except in this example page.
> >>
> >> The way I first tried to do it, tabbing around and hitting return on
> >> the arrow that shifts years, which is easier than the dance for me to
> >> genereate modified pageDn, shifted my focus from the button I was on
> >> - previous year
> >> - back to the date. So that path was going to be hundreds of keystrokes.
> >>
> >> I tried it because I couldn't remember if the shortcut you had for
> >> skipping years was one that already did something else in my normal set
> up.
> >>
> >> Some things that could be improved.
> >>
> >> 1. Look at the value when you open the picker and see if you can
> >> parse it 2. Don't jump focus when the picker is open 3. Use a
> >> focusable dropdown that recognises typing for the year, so if I start
> >> typing 156 it offers me the decade of the 1560s to select from.
> >> 4. Ditto for month, I guess.
> >>
> >> I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts about this. It's really
> >> not a simple topic about a couple of bugs in a piece of code. There
> >> are some really hard issues in here.
> >>
> >> cheers
> >>
> >> > Best wishes,
> >> > Bryan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Bryan Garaventa
> >> > Accessibility Fellow
> >> > SSB BART Group, Inc.
> >> > <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> > 415.624.2709 (o)
> >> > www.SSBBartGroup.com
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On
> >> > Behalf Of Chaals McCathie Nevile
> >> > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 3:41 AM
> >> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible Datepicker & NVDA Support
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, 19 May 2016 17:08:20 -0000, Meacham, Steve - FSA, Kansas
> >> > City, MO < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In my organization, I consider date pickers to be a "progressive
> >> >> enhancement" and don't even assess them for accessibility, so long
> >> >> as the user has the option to use them or ignore them and still
> >> >> specify a date.
> >> >
> >> > For precisely the reasons Jonathan suggested, such as knowing what
> >> > day of the week some date three months in the future will be, or
> >> > more generally being able to annotate dates with more information,
> >> > I suggest that it is very helpful to consider the accessibility of
> >> > date
> >> pickers.
> >> >
> >> > I also recognise that they are a very common thing that it is very
> >> > difficult to make very accessible.
> >> >
> >> > And since I am offline, I can't look at the specific example for
> >> > another day or so, but I'd be interested to see.
> >> >
> >> > I'm really hoping that Web Components will help us fix the problem
> >> > that input typeÚte failed to solve in HTML5. Figuring out what
> >> > makes an accessible date picker, and finding a *really* good one,
> >> > gives us insight into quite a lot of complex problems.
> >> >
> >> > Challenges for the truly geeky - but which become really important
> >> > when talking about how to deal with dates.
> >> >
> >> > 1. I was at the world finals of ICPC, a programming competition,
> >> > for the last week. There was a big poster outside with a
> >> > mascot-type figure, and text that amounted, for me who doesn't read
> >> > the local language's alphabet, to
> >> >
> >> > 17-20 *something* 2559
> >> >
> >> > What does it mean, and how is it relevant to the current discussion?
> >> >
> >> > 2. We have fairly reliable information - Shakespeare ;) - that
> >> > Julius Caesar was killed on the Ides of March, in 44 BC.
> >> >
> >> > When was that exactly?
> >> >
> >> > 3. Why was the anniversary of the October Revolution celebreated in
> >> > November?
> >> >
> >> > 4. When does the month of Ramadan start and end this year?
> >> >
> >> > cheers
> >> >
> >> > Chaals
> >> >
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> >> >> On Behalf Of Jonathan Avila
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 11:15 AM
> >> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible Datepicker & NVDA Support
> >> >>
> >> >>> (Not sure why they exist). Just type MM/DD/YYY in the label.
> >> >>
> >> >> Date pickers are sometimes necessary because they can indicate
> >> >> dates that are unavailable/available/holiday and they provide
> >> >> additional information in tabular form such as the week a date
> >> >> falls on or for example whether a date is the first, two, third,
> >> >> etc. Thursday in the month.
> >> >>
> >> >> Jonathan
> >> >>
> >> >> Jonathan Avila
> >> >> Chief Accessibility Officer
> >> >> SSB BART Group
> >> >> <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> >> 703.637.8957 (Office)
> >> >> Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | Linkedin | Blog
> >> >> Check out our Digital Accessibility Webinars!
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ]
> >> >> On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 12:11 PM
> >> >> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> >> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Accessible Datepicker & NVDA Support
> >> >>
> >> >> Hello,
> >> >> NVDA users would be crazy if they used a date picker! (Not sure
> >> >> why they exist). Just type MM/DD/YYY in the label. But that date
> >> >> picker is fine on my end (although I would never use it because I
> >> >> have to go through every day in every year!) Thanks,
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Brandon Keith Biggs <http://brandonkeithbiggs.com/>;
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 6:52 AM, Nisar A
> >> >> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Hello experts,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I built up a datepicker using bits and pieces from other
> datepickers.
> >> >>> Is there a way I can verify if that datepicker is compliant with
> >> >>> USDOT-508 / meets the WCAG 2.1.1 guidelines?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Here is the working example for reference:
> >> >>> https://jsfiddle.net/j49gz3g3/4/
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Some people in the testing team say that it is not compliant
> >> >>> since NVDA screen reader reads out the date along with the
> >> >>> column/row number. They claim it should read only the date and
> >> >>> not extra information.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Is that true?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Thanks,
> >> >>> Nisar
> >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> >>> > >> >>>
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
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> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> >> > <EMAIL REMOVED> - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
> >> > > >> > > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> >> <EMAIL REMOVED> - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
> >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >>
> >
> >
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >