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Re: React and screen reader accessibility?

for

From: Adam.Lund
Date: Apr 28, 2017 11:52AM

Brandon and WebAim list -

Brandon has brought up an excellent point on accessibility of single-page
web applications (SPAs). It is something I am very concerned about in our
present time because single page apps are becoming the new norm in web
application development. Furthermore, developers using these platforms
have limited tools available to notify AT of content updates-and that
assumes they have the understanding that they need to extra work to make
experiences accessible. You mentioned not wanting to have alerts all the
time for every update.

While you've identified React-based user interfaces not reporting state
change, the problem goes beyond React, as there are a number of SPAs that
function in a very similar way. The more popular ones include: Angular,
Vue, EmberJS, Meteor, ReactJS (of course) and a long-tail of others.
Angular in particular is a very popular web app front end development
platform and growing in popularity with my company.

You could (and should) message the React team with suggestions. But know
that it is one platform of many that operate in a similar way. If 65k
sites are done in React, 120k more are done in the others. Try buying a
plane ticket, booking a hotel room, changing your account password, or
purchasing a new keyboard in an SPA that doesn't report content changes.


WCAG is pretty light on guidance for SPAs, and the ARIA spec includes
limited hooks for us developers to use to trigger announcements. Do we
need more?


Questions for everyone listening:
1. Have you experienced bizarre behavior of a web site or application,
like you click on a link or button and you expect something to happen, but
it doesn't tell you what happened?
2. Have you needed to perform a critical task and been unable to because
of this problem?
3. How important is it to you that the app report content changes as they
occur, such that you don't have to re-scan the page to hunt for updated
content?


It's something I and my company are considering pursuing further and I am
curious if this is important to people monitoring this list.

Kind regards,
Adam


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. .
Adam Lund
Lead Accessibility Technologist

Thomson Reuters
the answer company

Phone: 651-687-4045
Mobile: 612-867-6185

<EMAIL REMOVED>

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. .



On 4/27/17, 11:30 PM, "WebAIM-Forum on behalf of Brandon Keith Biggs"
< <EMAIL REMOVED> on behalf of
<EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

>Hello,
>I posted an issue for the React team:
>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_facebook_r
>eact_issues_9549&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r>aEEOZvII2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskW
>Bun_fUqpkpEcAgs&s=0lOILfDujFtc6hfiefhkCjMkPT9-eD0ThY6cj0VCzoc&e>Please bring any thoughts to that discussion.
>
>To be honest, Big frameworks are the ones who have the most influance on
>web accessibility. If React is not enforcing accessibility, then 65000
>people are not making their apps accessible. If one multiplies that 65000
>times the number of apps one makes in their life, the number of
>hit-and-miss apps with accessibility is astounding.
>
>React is becoming massive and if there is no push to have React model what
>a perfect app should be, then web accessibility will just become worse and
>worse.
>Whoever is on the WCAG2 team needs to be poking the react team and explain
>to them that an accessibility API does NOT cut it! In fact it probably
>makes things worse as developers will think they need to always use the
>accessibility API to add screen reader accessibility into their apps. It
>is
>just like Aria, a very last resort.
>Thank you,
>
>
>Brandon Keith Biggs
><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__brandonkeithbiggs.com
>_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIPKG
>2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEcAgs
>&s=-GRGDW1rwf4WI0z0Tr6v_i11AvV4_CfWTlqxtEFM41I&e= >
>
>On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs <
> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> How does using a virtual DOM change the fact that using HTML in the
>> finished product is better than using a thousand div elements styled
>>with
>> CSS?
>>
>> In fact, I think it would be easier to make sure the finished product is
>> accessible. You don't have pesky programmers not following an official
>> coding practice messing with the final result in React.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also think that there are sometimes when a user wants to be alerted
>>and
>> sometimes when alerts are just annoying. I personally dislike alerts
>> telling me when the content changes, but in chat clients or normal
>>alerts,
>> I like my screen reader to read aloud what is going on.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think it is even worse that react has complete control over the
>> rendering and it is not accessible out o of the box through extensive
>>html
>> usage and user testing. It is a shame that the data tables and intro
>> tutorial are not accessible.
>>
>> I'm just wondering how there could be such a big divide between what FB
>> says and what react does.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__brandonkeithbiggs.co
>>m_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIP
>>KG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEc
>>Ags&s=-GRGDW1rwf4WI0z0Tr6v_i11AvV4_CfWTlqxtEFM41I&e= >
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Mark Smith < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Brandon,
>>>
>>> I have only been using React for less than a year, so I can't/won't
>>>claim
>>> expert knowledge but...
>>>
>>> It probably because React uses a virtual DOM to create (mainly) single
>>> page applications that render quickly vs creating a whole new page.
>>>It's
>>> not using the tree based DOM a straight HTML page uses in the browser.
>>>
>>> While you will see the URL change as you use the app, behind the scenes
>>> React takes a diff of the "page" you were on and compares it to the
>>>"new
>>> page" and only updates the part that has changed. This makes the app
>>>appear
>>> to load much faster but would leave you in a position where you need to
>>> alert the screen reader that part of the page has changed.
>>>
>>>
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__reactkungfu.com_2015
>>>_10_the-2Ddifference-2Dbetween-2Dvirtua&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLm
>>>y8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=P
>>>sTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEcAgs&s=_fNvaE3ZKdF-XOLUKUkcL8GIUHi
>>>thWBZeIwP2JeaTM0&e>>> l-dom-and-dom/
>>>
>>> HTH,
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> Mark Smith
>>> UI Developer Signet Jewelers
>>>
>>> 330.631.5409
>>> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>>>
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_
>>>mkultra&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvI
>>>I2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_f
>>>UqpkpEcAgs&s=8yJmeOFoKMx_evJK-3lqrNA6yXlUFdiX6XCBpOOI68M&e>>>
>>> > On Apr 26, 2017, at 9:49 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs <
>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hello,
>>> >
>>> > What is going on with React and screen reader accessibility?
>>>Apparently
>>> it
>>> > has all kinds of hooks for 'accessibility'. Why would someone do
>>>this?
>>> Why
>>> > can't react avoid using aria and use native widgets instead? Why is
>>> > accessibility optional? Why is accessibility something that is more
>>> complex
>>> > that a developer needs to worry about?
>>> >
>>> >
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__code.facebook.com_p
>>>osts_435862739941212_making-2Dreact&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1
>>>Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK
>>>1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEcAgs&s=Vd8iITYDkc3LKZaUNPxzM4K94lBqe-P
>>>ec7gmeh8Vims&e>>> -native-apps-accessible/
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_necolas_
>>>react-2Dnative-2Dweb_blob_master_docs&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8
>>>-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsT
>>>sK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEcAgs&s=Hxy5G-YVY-xpmu8msK_ZesAQFwH8S
>>>7j5DEKbsW1O2TU&e>>> /guides/accessibility.md
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > This doesn't seem to work based off the few react examples I have
>>>seen:
>>> >
>>> >
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__facebook.github.io_
>>>fixed-2Ddata-2Dtable_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFeb
>>>wKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPp
>>>v8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEcAgs&s=JyySbjuoxri4bNJAo-36SpP7qnv4lx6hATaGxfgLThs&e
>>>>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__facebook.github.io_
>>>react_tutorial_tutorial.html&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FW
>>>IvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw
>>>43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEcAgs&s=ClsTQQscmZJt-WR0-eAdc5oX21zjVSHJ1IDcou
>>>CbbYs&e>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > These are done by Facebook itself as an example to other developers.
>>>As
>>> a
>>> > screen reader user, I find this very very insulting and
>>>disheartening. I
>>> > hope I'm wrong and the examples I found from Facebook are not really
>>> what
>>> > they expect developers to learn from, but I greatly fear that they
>>>are.
>>> >
>>> > Does anyone know why there is such a disconnect between the
>>> accessibility
>>> > team and the people writing the examples?
>>> >
>>> > Accessibility is not something that can be added, it is something
>>>that
>>> > happens when good UI practice is followed and all the myriad
>>>elements in
>>> > UX, UI, screen reader, platform and user align in this very difficult
>>> > dance. It is very unwise for a company to put any of those factors
>>>out
>>> of
>>> > line.
>>> >
>>> > Why is FB doing this? How can we communicate that this is a problem?
>>> >
>>> > There are so many apps now that are being made with react that I fear
>>> soon
>>> > many apps for work and socializing will not be accessible or easily
>>> usable.
>>> >
>>> > Thank you,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Brandon Keith Biggs
>>><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__brandonkeithbiggs.c
>>>om_&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tb
>>>IPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpk
>>>pEcAgs&s=-GRGDW1rwf4WI0z0Tr6v_i11AvV4_CfWTlqxtEFM41I&e= >
>>> > >>> > >>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=D
>>>wIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIPKG2eN
>>>F4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEcAgs&
>>>s=oH-YV_i8LHPNOpnPcyhn9PlNGq6iteIzoHDwbdxtr30&e>>> > List archives at
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussio
>>>n_archives&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EO
>>>ZvII2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBu
>>>n_fUqpkpEcAgs&s=rDddmUeufY1_qASLsALPj-5caW4ajg4QIFhXOMD9g_s&e>>> > >>> >>> >>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=D
>>>wIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIPKG2eN
>>>F4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEcAgs&
>>>s=oH-YV_i8LHPNOpnPcyhn9PlNGq6iteIzoHDwbdxtr30&e>>> List archives at
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussio
>>>n_archives&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EO
>>>ZvII2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBu
>>>n_fUqpkpEcAgs&s=rDddmUeufY1_qASLsALPj-5caW4ajg4QIFhXOMD9g_s&e>>> >>>
>>
>>
>>>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=DwI
>GaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII2tbIPKG2eNF4xO
>0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqpkpEcAgs&s=oH-Y
>V_i8LHPNOpnPcyhn9PlNGq6iteIzoHDwbdxtr30&e>List archives at
>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussion_
>archives&d=DwIGaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r®EOZvII
>2tbIPKG2eNF4xO0sMdOti5hpdpOl6yNy29I&m=PsTsK1ngxMRw43D8bPpv8hRHCskWBun_fUqp
>kpEcAgs&s=rDddmUeufY1_qASLsALPj-5caW4ajg4QIFhXOMD9g_s&e>