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Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

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From: Sandy Feldman
Date: May 10, 2018 2:14PM

Jonathan,

I have put together a test page with one image using figcaption.

http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/figcaptiontest.html

Listening to it with Voice Over, I hear everything twice. Again, I not a
very skilled screen reader user. I find I like the less semantic page better

http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html

Do other people hear what I do? What do you think?

thanks! Sandy


On 2018-05-10 3:13 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
>
> * Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and
> medium. Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
> The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.
>
> Yes, I think this acts like a caption – so a figure and figure caption
> would be appropriate in my opinion.
>
> Regarding the details, the hidden text seems to work well for screen
> reader users.  Users with low vision are likely to miss details such
> as the accordion or the time on the clock, etc. and could also benefit
> from these.  How you expose the details to the low vision user without
> giving them to all users would be tricky.   Even with the hidden text
> example it wouldn't surprise me if that text shoed up in search
> results or something else.  In fact it does, the below is what is seen
> in google when I search for some of the text
>
> paintings. Arnie Lipsey, artist and filmmaker - I need a coffee
> <http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html>;
>
> ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html
>
> 1.
>
> Paintings. *Arnie's grandfather* decorating a cake. The Pastry Chef.
> 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas. My*grandfather* applies the finishing
> touches to a crown-shaped cake in honour of George the fifth's
> coronation in 1937. Beside him on the floor is an
> *accordion* reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit. On the
> wall behind him is ...
>
> Jonathan Avila
>
> Chief Accessibility Officer
>
> *Level Access*
>
> <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> 703.637.8957 office
>
> Visit us online:
>
> Website <http://www.levelaccess.com/>; | Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/LevelAccessA11y> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/LevelAccessA11y/> | LinkedIn
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/level-access> | Blog
> <http://www.levelaccess.com/blog/>;
>
> /Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free
> webinars!/ <https://www.levelaccess.com/compliance-resources/webinars/>
>
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney
> privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of the
> individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not
> the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
> strictly prohibited.
>
> *From:*Sandy Feldman < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 8, 2018 7:21 PM
> *To:* WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >; Jonathan
> Avila < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> *Subject:* Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and
> Alt-text oh my...
>
> hey Jonathan,
>
> "the author doesn't want to  prevent the user from making their own
> determinations" is exactly why the artist wants his descriptions
> hidden from the sighted user. That's well said. It's been very
> interesting for me to read these. It's given me an insight into these
> dreamlike images.
>
> So, for example, the alt on one of the images is alt="Arnie's
> grandfather decorating a cake"
>
> Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and medium.
> Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
> The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.
>
> And here is the visually hidden text, written by the artist:
> "My grandfather applies the finishing touches to a crown-shaped cake
> in honour of George the fifth's coronation in 1937. Beside him on the
> floor is an accordion reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit.
> On the wall behind him is a Soviet propaganda poster extolling the
> benefits of collective farming, a reference to his radical past. A
> pair of muddy army boots betrays his desertion from the Lithuanian army."
>
> Except for the alt none of this has any semantic tagging or ARIA
> labels. It's just plain old text, either hidden or displayed. It makes
> sense to me when I listen to it with Voice Over, but it would,
> wouldn't it?
>
> I am wondering if it makes sense to people using a screen reader, and
> if there's a better way I could do it.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
> On 2018-05-08 7:08 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> > I would also comment that in my opinion there is a difference >
> between alt text and a caption and they should be different. An >
> alternative provides a replacement for non-text content while a >
> caption associates the image with the content allowing for references
> > from the content. Alt text can also be useful to people with low >
> vision who might miss subtle details in the picture but do have some >
> sight. With art is difficult as what you see is subjective based on >
> your life's experience and the author doesn't want to prevent the >
> user from making their own determinations. In that since alt text >
> for art may be different from alt text for other images in that you >
> generally don't want to describe the image but the function. With >
> art you may want to describe the image and not express an >
> interpretation on the screen reader or any user. I suppose an >
> exception to this might be an art education class where you want to >
> communicate that. > > Jonathan > > Jonathan Avila Chief Accessibility
> Officer Level Access > <EMAIL REMOVED>
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > 703.637.8957 office > > Visit us
> online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog > > Looking to
> boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free > webinars! > >
> The information contained in this transmission may be attorney >
> privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of >
> the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message >
> is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, >
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is >
> strictly prohibited. > > -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum
> > < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Sandy
> Feldman > Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 5:13 PM To: WebAIM Discussion
> List > < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >; Tim Harshbarger >
> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] >
> [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... > > I have
> been following this thread with real interest. > > I am working on a
> little portfolio site for an artist. Usually alt > text is a tough
> sell to someone in the visual arts, but this guy has > a good friend
> who is blind and is right into it. > > Each image on the "Paintings"
> page has alt text, and also a visually > hidden description of the
> painting provided by the artist. I didn't > want all the back and
> forth of long description pages. He does not > want people who can see
> the paintings reading the descriptions. > >
> http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html > > Does this make sense to
> anyone but me? Is there a more semantic way > to do this? Comments and
> suggestions very welcome. > > Also - this is a work in progress. The
> "drawings" page is not ready > to go. Other stuff is still being
> tweaked. > > thanks! Sandy > > > > On 2018-05-08 10:39 AM, Tim
> Harshbarger wrote: >> I think this brings up an important point. >> >>
> When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to >>
> understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? >>
> Are you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test >>
> something else? >> >> If you are testing against a standard, you want
> to make sure the >> tools and process you use actually tells you if
> something meets >> the standard. If you are focused on user
> experience, then you >> likely want tests that involve actual users
> using whatever AT they >> prefer to use. >> >> A developer just
> installing a screen reader and listening to find >> out if it sounds
> right to the developer typically doesn't achieve >> either of those
> goals. If anything, the goal in that situation >> ends up being to
> ensure the site sounds good to that >> developer--which ends up likely
> creating a site that neither meets >> a standard or provides a good
> user experience for those people who >> do rely on a screen reader.
> Well, I suppose those things might >> happen, but they would be
> accidental outcomes rather than >> intentional outcomes of the
> testing. -----Original Message----- >> From: WebAIM-Forum
> [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On >> Behalf Of Birkir
> R. Gunnarsson Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM >> To: WebAIM
> Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: >> [EXTERNAL] Re:
> [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... >> >> This is what
> makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it >> does much less
> guess work than, say, Jaws. >> >> >> >> On 5/7/18, Steve Green
> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: >>> I recently saw a
> statement that there are about 1.3 billion >>> websites. I doubt if
> even 1% of those have been designed and >>> tested to achieve a good
> level of accessibility. Screen readers >>> therefore have to do the
> best they can with the other 99%. If >>> some developers are relying
> on a screen reader to do a quick >>> test, that doesn't seem a good
> enough reason to impair the user >>> experience on the 99% of website
> where the developers didn't >>> even test at all. >>> >>> Testing with
> assistive technologies is important, but developers >>> should not be
> using screen readers to assess the level of >>> standards compliance
> of their code - there are much more >>> appropriate tools and
> techniques for that. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum >>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of glen walker
> >>> Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>
> < <EMAIL REMOVED> > <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and >>> Captions and Alt-text oh my...
> >>> >>> I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is
> >>> intended for the person that needs it and not the developer, but
> >>> it also gives a developer a false sense of accomplishment if >>>
> their code sounds good. For example, jaws will try to find a >>> label
> for an input field even if the developer didn't code one. >>> That's
> bad for the developer but good for the end user. Of >>> course, a11y
> testing should be done on a variety of platforms >>> but there are
> unfortunately many cases of a quick test and >>> people think they're
> good. >>> >>> Glen >>> >>> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green
> >>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: >>> >>>>
> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics >>>> to
> clean up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets >>>> them
> apart from more basic screen readers. The user experience >>>> would
> be far worse if they did nothing more than present the >>>>
> information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Steve Green Managing
> Director Test Partners Ltd >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum >>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of glen walker
> >>>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>>
> < <EMAIL REMOVED> > <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures >>>> and Captions and Alt-text oh my...
> >>>> >>>> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design. >>>>
> >>>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit >>>>
> of the doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing >>>> but
> overdid it. In any event, a screen reader should not have >>>> to fix
> it. It should stick with what it does best and present >>>> the
> information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Glen >>>> >>>> On Sun, May
> 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn >>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I
> was just reading through the story about Alice's >>>>> Restaurant that
> was in The Boston Globe this week. While an >>>>> interesting story,
> it was getting very frustrating by the end >>>>> with VoiceOver on the
> Macintosh reading essentially the same >>>>> description for each
> picture four times. >>>>> >>>>> It would read once for the start of
> the figure once for the >>>>> end of the figure, then the alt text and
> the text below the >>>>> picture were also read. except for the alt
> attribute on the >>>>> graphic itself all the text was exactly the
> same. So, our >>>>> wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at least
> one screen >>>>> reader for graphical descriptions to be read four
> times. >>>>> >>>>> OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that
> would not >>>>> be as verbose though this In fact, if one puts the
> Macintosh >>>>> in "Group" web navigation it won't be overly
> redundant. >>>>> >>>>> But is this issue essentially a Browser /
> screen reader >>>>> issue or a design issue. I.E. if figure name > caption name >>>>> = alt-text should we be requiring our Screen Reader
> vendors >>>>> to clean this up, or should the underlying HTML generaed
> by >>>>> Newspapers only include alternative text if they are not
> >>>>> using figure /figcaption? >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>>
> Jonathan Cohn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > >
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> <http://webaim.org/discussion/archives>; > <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > >
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> --
> Sandy
>
> sandyfeldman.com
> sandyfeldman.tumblr.com/
> ca.linkedin.com/in/sandyfeldman
> inclusivemedia.ca
>

--
Sandy

sandyfeldman.com
sandyfeldman.tumblr.com/
ca.linkedin.com/in/sandyfeldman
inclusivemedia.ca