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Re: [EXTERNAL]Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

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From: Jonathan Avila
Date: May 10, 2018 1:13PM


* Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and medium. Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.

Yes, I think this acts like a caption – so a figure and figure caption would be appropriate in my opinion.

Regarding the details, the hidden text seems to work well for screen reader users. Users with low vision are likely to miss details such as the accordion or the time on the clock, etc. and could also benefit from these. How you expose the details to the low vision user without giving them to all users would be tricky. Even with the hidden text example it wouldn't surprise me if that text shoed up in search results or something else. In fact it does, the below is what is seen in google when I search for some of the text

paintings. Arnie Lipsey, artist and filmmaker - I need a coffee<http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html>;
ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html
1.
Paintings. Arnie's grandfather decorating a cake. The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas. Mygrandfather applies the finishing touches to a crown-shaped cake in honour of George the fifth's coronation in 1937. Beside him on the floor is an accordion reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit. On the wall behind him is ...

Jonathan Avila
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From: Sandy Feldman < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 7:21 PM
To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >; Jonathan Avila < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my...

hey Jonathan,

"the author doesn't want to prevent the user from making their own determinations" is exactly why the artist wants his descriptions hidden from the sighted user. That's well said. It's been very interesting for me to read these. It's given me an insight into these dreamlike images.

So, for example, the alt on one of the images is alt="Arnie's grandfather decorating a cake"

Underneath the image of the painting is the title, size, and medium. Would it make sense to put this in a <caption>?
The Pastry Chef. 30" x 24". Acrylic on canvas.

And here is the visually hidden text, written by the artist:
"My grandfather applies the finishing touches to a crown-shaped cake in honour of George the fifth's coronation in 1937. Beside him on the floor is an accordion reflective of his fun loving "party guy" spirit. On the wall behind him is a Soviet propaganda poster extolling the benefits of collective farming, a reference to his radical past. A pair of muddy army boots betrays his desertion from the Lithuanian army."

Except for the alt none of this has any semantic tagging or ARIA labels. It's just plain old text, either hidden or displayed. It makes sense to me when I listen to it with Voice Over, but it would, wouldn't it?

I am wondering if it makes sense to people using a screen reader, and if there's a better way I could do it.

Sandy




On 2018-05-08 7:08 PM, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> I would also comment that in my opinion there is a difference > between alt text and a caption and they should be different. An > alternative provides a replacement for non-text content while a > caption associates the image with the content allowing for references > from the content. Alt text can also be useful to people with low > vision who might miss subtle details in the picture but do have some > sight. With art is difficult as what you see is subjective based on > your life's experience and the author doesn't want to prevent the > user from making their own determinations. In that since alt text > for art may be different from alt text for other images in that you > generally don't want to describe the image but the function. With > art you may want to describe the image and not express an > interpretation on the screen reader or any user. I suppose an > exception to this might be an art education class where you want to > communicate that. > > Jonathan > > Jonathan Avila Chief Accessibility Officer Level Access > <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > 703.637.8957 office > > Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | LinkedIn | Blog > > Looking to boost your accessibility knowledge? Check out our free > webinars! > > The information contained in this transmission may be attorney > privileged and/or confidential information intended for the use of > the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message > is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, > dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. > > -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum > < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Sandy Feldman > Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 5:13 PM To: WebAIM Discussion List > < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >; Tim Harshbarger > < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] > [EXTERNAL] Re: Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... > > I have been following this thread with real interest. > > I am working on a little portfolio site for an artist. Usually alt > text is a tough sell to someone in the visual arts, but this guy has > a good friend who is blind and is right into it. > > Each image on the "Paintings" page has alt text, and also a visually > hidden description of the painting provided by the artist. I didn't > want all the back and forth of long description pages. He does not > want people who can see the paintings reading the descriptions. > > http://ineeda.coffee/arnie/paintings.html > > Does this make sense to anyone but me? Is there a more semantic way > to do this? Comments and suggestions very welcome. > > Also - this is a work in progress. The "drawings" page is not ready > to go. Other stuff is still being tweaked. > > thanks! Sandy > > > > On 2018-05-08 10:39 AM, Tim Harshbarger wrote: >> I think this brings up an important point. >> >> When you are creating accessibility tests, it is important to >> understand your goal. Are you trying to test against a standard? >> Are you testing the user experience? Or are you wanting to test >> something else? >> >> If you are testing against a standard, you want to make sure the >> tools and process you use actually tells you if something meets >> the standard. If you are focused on user experience, then you >> likely want tests that involve actual users using whatever AT they >> prefer to use. >> >> A developer just installing a screen reader and listening to find >> out if it sounds right to the developer typically doesn't achieve >> either of those goals. If anything, the goal in that situation >> ends up being to ensure the site sounds good to that >> developer--which ends up likely creating a site that neither meets >> a standard or provides a good user experience for those people who >> do rely on a screen reader. Well, I suppose those things might >> happen, but they would be accidental outcomes rather than >> intentional outcomes of the testing. -----Original Message----- >> From: WebAIM-Forum [mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ] On >> Behalf Of Birkir R. Gunnarsson Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 6:55 AM >> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: >> [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Figures and Captions and Alt-text oh my... >> >> This is what makes NvDA a great screen reader to test with, it >> does much less guess work than, say, Jaws. >> >> >> >> On 5/7/18, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: >>> I recently saw a statement that there are about 1.3 billion >>> websites. I doubt if even 1% of those have been designed and >>> tested to achieve a good level of accessibility. Screen readers >>> therefore have to do the best they can with the other 99%. If >>> some developers are relying on a screen reader to do a quick >>> test, that doesn't seem a good enough reason to impair the user >>> experience on the 99% of website where the developers didn't >>> even test at all. >>> >>> Testing with assistive technologies is important, but developers >>> should not be using screen readers to assess the level of >>> standards compliance of their code - there are much more >>> appropriate tools and techniques for that. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum >>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of glen walker >>> Sent: 07 May 2018 17:00 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures and >>> Captions and Alt-text oh my... >>> >>> I agree the user experience would be worse, and the screen is >>> intended for the person that needs it and not the developer, but >>> it also gives a developer a false sense of accomplishment if >>> their code sounds good. For example, jaws will try to find a >>> label for an input field even if the developer didn't code one. >>> That's bad for the developer but good for the end user. Of >>> course, a11y testing should be done on a variety of platforms >>> but there are unfortunately many cases of a quick test and >>> people think they're good. >>> >>> Glen >>> >>> On Mon, May 7, 2018 at 3:40 AM, Steve Green >>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: >>> >>>> Professional-grade screen readers have always used heuristics >>>> to clean up bad design - it's one of the key things that sets >>>> them apart from more basic screen readers. The user experience >>>> would be far worse if they did nothing more than present the >>>> information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Steve Green Managing Director Test Partners Ltd >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: WebAIM-Forum >>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of glen walker >>>> Sent: 07 May 2018 00:18 To: WebAIM Discussion List >>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Figures >>>> and Captions and Alt-text oh my... >>>> >>>> Screen readers should not have to clean up bad design. >>>> >>>> But that sounds kind of harsh. I would give them the benefit >>>> of the doubt and say they were trying to do the right thing >>>> but overdid it. In any event, a screen reader should not have >>>> to fix it. It should stick with what it does best and present >>>> the information that has been coded. >>>> >>>> Glen >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 1:39 PM, Jonathan Cohn >>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello, >>>>> >>>>> I was just reading through the story about Alice's >>>>> Restaurant that was in The Boston Globe this week. While an >>>>> interesting story, it was getting very frustrating by the end >>>>> with VoiceOver on the Macintosh reading essentially the same >>>>> description for each picture four times. >>>>> >>>>> It would read once for the start of the figure once for the >>>>> end of the figure, then the alt text and the text below the >>>>> picture were also read. except for the alt attribute on the >>>>> graphic itself all the text was exactly the same. So, our >>>>> wonderful HTML5 standards have caused in at least one screen >>>>> reader for graphical descriptions to be read four times. >>>>> >>>>> OK, I can figure out how to develop a figure that would not >>>>> be as verbose though this In fact, if one puts the Macintosh >>>>> in "Group" web navigation it won't be overly redundant. >>>>> >>>>> But is this issue essentially a Browser / screen reader >>>>> issue or a design issue. I.E. if figure name = caption name >>>>> = alt-text should we be requiring our Screen Reader vendors >>>>> to clean this up, or should the underlying HTML generaed by >>>>> Newspapers only include alternative text if they are not >>>>> using figure /figcaption? >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes, >>>>> >>>>> Jonathan Cohn >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > > --
Sandy

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