WebAIM - Web Accessibility In Mind

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WebAIM-Forum Digest, Vol 174, Issue 19

for

From: Amelia Dickerson
Date: Sep 22, 2019 9:46PM

I just thought we could plan it around your schedule if you were
interested. :)

On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 12:01 PM < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
wrote:

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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of WebAIM-Forum digest..."
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an effect?
> (Steve Green)
> 2. Re: need a code example of a keyboard trap (Don Raikes)
> 3. Re: Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an effect?
> (Bim Egan)
> 4. Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination (Philip Kiff)
> 5. Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination (Philip Kiff)
> 6. Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination (David Engebretson Jr.)
> 7. Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination (glen walker)
> 8. Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination (Jared Smith)
> 9. Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination (Glen Walker)
> 10. Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination (Philip Kiff)
> 11. Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination (Philip Kiff)
> 12. Re: Browser and Screen Reader Combination (Philip Kiff)
> 13. Re: Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an effect?
> (Steve Green)
> 14. Re: Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an effect?
> (Birkir R. Gunnarsson)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 18:03:17 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an
> effect?
> There are any number of reasons why the sub menu links can't be reached,
> but I would not expect aria-controls to be one of them. We would need to
> see the code to figure it out - can you share the URL? We spend a lot of
> time trying to understand the increasingly crazy code that we're presented
> with these days, but there's always an answer.
>
> Steve Green
> Managing Director
> Test Partners Ltd
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Bim Egan
> Sent: 20 September 2019 12:33
> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an effect?
>
> Good afternoon all,
>
> I'm testing a mega menu that doesn't appear to be working properly, and I
> can't figure out why.
>
> The large screen view has a horizontal menu that is working, but when it
> gets to small screen and the hamburger menu button appears, the sub menu
> links can't be reached.
>
> The menu button has an aria-controls attribute that matches the sub-menu
> id, but when the menu button is activated, there's more revealed than just
> the sub-menu. The devs have inserted a search field and button between the
> (now
> "close") button and the sub-menu. My expectation was to move from the
> search button to the first sub-menu item, but instead it moves into main
> content.
>
> HeydonWorks article seems to suggest that aria-controls could cause some
> problems in this situation, but he doesn't go into detail.
> https://www.heydonworks.com/article/aria-controls-is-poop
>
> So can anyone tell me if the problem will be solved if the devs move the
> mobile version search out of the dropdown or what can be done to bring the
> mobile sub-menu into the tab order?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Bim
>
>
>
>
> -------------
> Bim Egan
> Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
> Personal Email: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Skype ID: bim.accessequals
>
> Coordinator: Describe Online
> W: www.describe-online.com
> E: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> ----------------------------------------
> Partner: AccessEquals
> W: www.accessequals.com
> E: <EMAIL REMOVED>
>
> > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Don Raikes < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:06:41 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need a code example of a keyboard trap
> Thanks for the example I will see about including it in my demo.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birkir R. Gunnarsson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 8:18 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] need a code example of a keyboard trap
>
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__whenpush.a11yideas.com_&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=RSYNyNFr7Oj1BRE0qW_8pVA2z0qhUeWtOTBuXmZp9uE&m=ocIr_3zL7SplzIE3G3RHOjicX0Z5MpyxpB1croiQkwc&s=J6IwFr3oIIFvKhJH1MjPpeg0G1OeteUgzcs4mIaOfsw&e> (if you open the welcome message you can't swipe or click yor way out of
> it with Voiceover running).
> I created this presentation with a friend and old colleague back in
> 2016 and it's all about making accessible auto complete search widget.
> You can get past the welcome message to the example using this URL:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__whenpush.a11yideas.com_intro.html&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=RSYNyNFr7Oj1BRE0qW_8pVA2z0qhUeWtOTBuXmZp9uE&m=ocIr_3zL7SplzIE3G3RHOjicX0Z5MpyxpB1croiQkwc&s=uzRIZKHuJQokjbEotw9C7nKTGQhhgB6q24--LqIQ_p0&e>
>
>
>
> On 9/19/19, Don Raikes < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> > I am preparing a demo of using VoiceOver to test the accessibility of a
> web
> > application, and one of the things I want to demonstrate is what a
> "keyboard
> > trap" lookslike for someone using VoiceOver and runs into a "flick trap".
> >
> >
> >
> > If anyone has seen such a situation and can forward either the website or
> > the code I would greatly appreciate it.
> >
> >
> >
> > TIA,
> >
> > Donald
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks, Donald
> >
> > "As a leader, to be successful, is to help the people around you to be
> > successful." - Kent Boucher
> >
> >
> >
> > Accessibility, like security, is better when built-in from the beginning
> > rather than bolted on at the end.
> >
> >
> > http://www.oracle.com/
> > Donald Raikes | Accessibility Specialist
> > Mobile: HYPERLINK "tel:+15202717608"+15202717608 | VOIP: HYPERLINK
> > "tel:+15205744033"+15205744033
> > Oracle Accessibility Program Office
> > | Tucson, Arizona
> >
> > http://www.oracle.com/commitment
> >
> > Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help
> protect
> > the environment
> >
> >
> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=RSYNyNFr7Oj1BRE0qW_8pVA2z0qhUeWtOTBuXmZp9uE&m=ocIr_3zL7SplzIE3G3RHOjicX0Z5MpyxpB1croiQkwc&s=tE7DpWWyHDs-2wkPdncMx0kyg23lgLgBDivscTTFrhs&e> > List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=RSYNyNFr7Oj1BRE0qW_8pVA2z0qhUeWtOTBuXmZp9uE&m=ocIr_3zL7SplzIE3G3RHOjicX0Z5MpyxpB1croiQkwc&s=ivhQ0B2WQMmCIhVCsB86ANARf3lIF1fi7mU3esMMzlk&e> > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.webaim.org_&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=RSYNyNFr7Oj1BRE0qW_8pVA2z0qhUeWtOTBuXmZp9uE&m=ocIr_3zL7SplzIE3G3RHOjicX0Z5MpyxpB1croiQkwc&s=tE7DpWWyHDs-2wkPdncMx0kyg23lgLgBDivscTTFrhs&e> List archives at
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__webaim.org_discussion_archives&d=DwICAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=RSYNyNFr7Oj1BRE0qW_8pVA2z0qhUeWtOTBuXmZp9uE&m=ocIr_3zL7SplzIE3G3RHOjicX0Z5MpyxpB1croiQkwc&s=ivhQ0B2WQMmCIhVCsB86ANARf3lIF1fi7mU3esMMzlk&e> >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Bim Egan < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 19:47:32 +0100
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an
> effect?
> Hi Steve,
> Sorry it's a test environment I've had to be white listed. I could redact
> the code let you see the HTML for that part of the page, but at doesn't
> actually help much if JavaScript is doing the damage.
> Like you I've seen some very odd mark up, but this one has me Foxed.
>
> Bim
>
> > On 20 Sep 2019, at 19:03, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> >
> > There are any number of reasons why the sub menu links can't be reached,
> but I would not expect aria-controls to be one of them. We would need to
> see the code to figure it out - can you share the URL? We spend a lot of
> time trying to understand the increasingly crazy code that we're presented
> with these days, but there's always an answer.
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Bim Egan
> > Sent: 20 September 2019 12:33
> > To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an
> effect?
> >
> > Good afternoon all,
> >
> > I'm testing a mega menu that doesn't appear to be working properly, and
> I can't figure out why.
> >
> > The large screen view has a horizontal menu that is working, but when
> it gets to small screen and the hamburger menu button appears, the sub menu
> links can't be reached.
> >
> > The menu button has an aria-controls attribute that matches the sub-menu
> id, but when the menu button is activated, there's more revealed than just
> the sub-menu. The devs have inserted a search field and button between the
> (now
> > "close") button and the sub-menu. My expectation was to move from the
> search button to the first sub-menu item, but instead it moves into main
> content.
> >
> > HeydonWorks article seems to suggest that aria-controls could cause some
> problems in this situation, but he doesn't go into detail.
> > https://www.heydonworks.com/article/aria-controls-is-poop
> >
> > So can anyone tell me if the problem will be solved if the devs move the
> mobile version search out of the dropdown or what can be done to bring the
> mobile sub-menu into the tab order?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Bim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------
> > Bim Egan
> > Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
> > Personal Email: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Skype ID: bim.accessequals
> >
> > Coordinator: Describe Online
> > W: www.describe-online.com
> > E: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Partner: AccessEquals
> > W: www.accessequals.com
> > E: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Philip Kiff < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 16:18:10 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> I guess the point I was trying to make is that there is no "best"
> combination of a single specific browser with a single screen reader
> that is "best" for testing accessibility.
>
> I'm not a specialist in the advantages and disadvantages of the many,
> many different testing configurations available, but based on what
> you've explained so far, I would recommend thinking of which screen
> readers you are going to test with first. Then, you can decide if it
> even matters which browsers you are using.
>
> If you are going to use multiple browser and screen reader combinations,
> then I would suggest that one of the screen readers should be JAWS. That
> is the most widely used screen reader, and if your site is not usable in
> JAWS then that will be a problem.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-09-20 13:44, Praunicorn wrote:
> > Hi Philip Kiff,
> >
> > Thank you for your information , but I am not able see the information
> for Chrome & Edge browsers in the reply chain.
> >
> > Chrome & Edge :
> >
> > 1. I am using the following combination "Chrome with NVDA" because In
> NVDA website they mentioned that they are supporting chrome along with the
> FF.
> >
> > 2. And also I have doubt, among IE and Edge which one is the best for
> Accessibility testing and what is screen reader combination for this.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sreekar
> >
> > Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> >
> > From: Philip Kiff
> > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:42 PM
> > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> >
> > Hi Sreekar,
> >
> > The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics have
> > been covered before:
> > https://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
> > readers and browsers, for e.g.:
> > Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
> > https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread†98
> >
> > The best combination depends on several factors - including especially
> > your target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
> > combination is right for you.
> >
> > Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following
> combinations:
> > JAWS/Internet Explorer
> > NVDA/Firefox
> > Voiceover/Safari
> >
> > Phil.
> >
> > On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am using
> below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me know I am in
> right combination or not.
> >>
> >> 1. Chrome With NVDA
> >> 2. Edge With Narrator
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Sreekar.
> >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Philip Kiff < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 16:33:13 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> Oh, and WebAIM does an excellent annual survey of screen reader users
> and they publish the results, including a table showing the most popular
> combinations of browsers and screen readers:
> https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/#browsercombos
>
> On 2019-09-20 16:18, Philip Kiff wrote:
> > I guess the point I was trying to make is that there is no "best"
> > combination of a single specific browser with a single screen reader
> > that is "best" for testing accessibility.
> >
> > I'm not a specialist in the advantages and disadvantages of the many,
> > many different testing configurations available, but based on what
> > you've explained so far, I would recommend thinking of which screen
> > readers you are going to test with first. Then, you can decide if it
> > even matters which browsers you are using.
> >
> > If you are going to use multiple browser and screen reader
> > combinations, then I would suggest that one of the screen readers
> > should be JAWS. That is the most widely used screen reader, and if
> > your site is not usable in JAWS then that will be a problem.
> >
> > Phil.
> >
> > On 2019-09-20 13:44, Praunicorn wrote:
> >> Hi Philip Kiff,
> >>
> >> Thank you for your information , but I am not able see the
> >> information for Chrome & Edge browsers in the reply chain.
> >>
> >> Chrome & Edge :
> >>
> >> 1. I am using the following combination "Chrome with NVDA" because
> >> In NVDA website they mentioned that they are supporting chrome along
> >> with the FF.
> >>
> >> 2. And also I have doubt, among IE and Edge which one is the best for
> >> Accessibility testing and what is screen reader combination for this.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Sreekar
> >>
> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> >>
> >> From: Philip Kiff
> >> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:42 PM
> >> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> >>
> >> Hi Sreekar,
> >>
> >> The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics have
> >> been covered before:
> >> https://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>
> >> There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
> >> readers and browsers, for e.g.:
> >> Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
> >> https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread†98
> >>
> >> The best combination depends on several factors - including especially
> >> your target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
> >> combination is right for you.
> >>
> >> Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following
> >> combinations:
> >> JAWS/Internet Explorer
> >> NVDA/Firefox
> >> Voiceover/Safari
> >>
> >> Phil.
> >>
> >> On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am
> >>> using below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me
> >>> know I am in right combination or not.
> >>>
> >>> 1. Chrome With NVDA
> >>> 2. Edge With Narrator
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Sreekar.
> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "David Engebretson Jr." < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: "'WebAIM Discussion List'" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 14:25:38 -0700
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> infrastructure in early 2020?
>
> Just curious. Here's what I test with:
> Safari on IOS, and OSX
> NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
> JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge
>
> Best,
> David
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Philip Kiff
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:12 AM
> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
>
> Hi Sreekar,
>
> The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics have
> been
> covered before:
> https://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>
> There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
> readers and browsers, for e.g.:
> Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
> https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread†98
>
> The best combination depends on several factors - including especially your
> target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
> combination is right for you.
>
> Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following combinations:
> JAWS/Internet Explorer
> NVDA/Firefox
> Voiceover/Safari
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am using
> below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me know I am in
> right combination or not.
> >
> > 1. Chrome With NVDA
> > 2. Edge With Narrator
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sreekar.
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > at
> http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: glen walker < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 18:10:10 -0600
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> Just remember that the survey is voluntary and not a distributed population
> set. So the "most popular" combinations of screen readers and browsers
> might end up being the most popular testing environments because the survey
> might have been filled out by mostly accessibility testers (for example).
> If you wanted a true "most popular" result based on actual screen reader
> users (and not testers), the survey would have to be limited to that
> population.
>
> It's still a great survey but you have to be careful with the results.
>
> You'll notice in the results that NVDA seems to be on par with JAWS but I
> suspect that's because more and more accessibility testers fill out the
> survey and most testers use both screen readers.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 2:33 PM Philip Kiff < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> > Oh, and WebAIM does an excellent annual survey of screen reader users
> > and they publish the results, including a table showing the most popular
> > combinations of browsers and screen readers:
> > https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey7/#browsercombos
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jared Smith < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 18:36:16 -0600
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> > Just remember that the survey is voluntary and not a distributed
> population
> > set.
>
> Correct, but it is the largest data set from screen reader users available.
>
> > So the "most popular" combinations of screen readers and browsers
> > might end up being the most popular testing environments because the
> survey
> > might have been filled out by mostly accessibility testers (for example).
>
> This is not correct. 89.2% of respondents to the survey that is linked
> here reported using a screen reader due to a disability. When there
> are notable differences in responses between respondents with and
> without disabilities, we note these, but most of the time the
> responses generally align. In other words, the 10.8% of respondents
> that don't have a disability do not skew the reported data in
> significant ways.
>
> > You'll notice in the results that NVDA seems to be on par with JAWS but I
> > suspect that's because more and more accessibility testers fill out the
> > survey and most testers use both screen readers.
>
> Your suspicion is generally incorrect. 64.7% of respondents with
> disabilities use NVDA compared to 69.3% of respondents without
> disabilities. So usage is slightly higher among those without
> disabilities, but these are so few in number that this skews the
> overall NVDA usage percentage by only .2%.
>
> We'll be publishing results from our most recent survey in the next week
> or so.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jared Smith
> WebAIM.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Glen Walker < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 18:41:13 -0600
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> Good to know. Thanks for the clarifications.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 20, 2019, at 6:36 PM, Jared Smith < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>
> >> Just remember that the survey is voluntary and not a distributed
> population
> >> set.
> >
> > Correct, but it is the largest data set from screen reader users
> available.
> >
> >> So the "most popular" combinations of screen readers and browsers
> >> might end up being the most popular testing environments because the
> survey
> >> might have been filled out by mostly accessibility testers (for
> example).
> >
> > This is not correct. 89.2% of respondents to the survey that is linked
> > here reported using a screen reader due to a disability. When there
> > are notable differences in responses between respondents with and
> > without disabilities, we note these, but most of the time the
> > responses generally align. In other words, the 10.8% of respondents
> > that don't have a disability do not skew the reported data in
> > significant ways.
> >
> >> You'll notice in the results that NVDA seems to be on par with JAWS but
> I
> >> suspect that's because more and more accessibility testers fill out the
> >> survey and most testers use both screen readers.
> >
> > Your suspicion is generally incorrect. 64.7% of respondents with
> > disabilities use NVDA compared to 69.3% of respondents without
> > disabilities. So usage is slightly higher among those without
> > disabilities, but these are so few in number that this skews the
> > overall NVDA usage percentage by only .2%.
> >
> > We'll be publishing results from our most recent survey in the next week
> or so.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jared Smith
> > WebAIM.org
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Philip Kiff < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 21:14:43 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> > Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> > infrastructure in early 2020?
> Mmm. Good point, but is IE really disappearing in 2020?
>
> Like I say, I'm not really on top of the current news on this - I only
> replied to this thread initially in order not to leave Sreekar in the
> lurch without any responses. There are many folks on this list who know
> considerably more than me about the state of screen readers and browsers.
>
> But is IE really disappearing? There are still tons and tons of
> intranets and custom applications that have been coded poorly and will
> only work on IE. Those aren't going to disappear in 2020. I thought that
> what Microsoft was planning on doing was somehow magically incorporating
> an IE 11 emulator into Edge in order to guarantee that all those crappy
> intranets will still work for several more years while systems folk
> around the world scramble to recode what should have never been coded in
> the first place, or to create replacements that are written in proper,
> acceptable standards-compliant and somewhat-accessible code.
>
> Aren't they even going to keep supporting IE 11 as an Enterprise product
> for a while?
>
> If both those are true, then whether you call it Edge or IE 11, there
> will be lots of sites that still have to work with it? But like I say,
> I'm not sure if all that is true?
>
> (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern browser
> that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine and some
> crazy IE 11 emulator, then someone over in their coding dept. will
> deserve considerable praise. But I wonder if all that will really be
> possible.... :-)
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-09-20 17:25, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
> > Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> > infrastructure in early 2020?
> >
> > Just curious. Here's what I test with:
> > Safari on IOS, and OSX
> > NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
> > JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge
> >
> > Best,
> > David
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> > Philip Kiff
> > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:12 AM
> > To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> >
> > Hi Sreekar,
> >
> > The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics have
> been
> > covered before:
> > https://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
> > There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
> > readers and browsers, for e.g.:
> > Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
> > https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread†98
> >
> > The best combination depends on several factors - including especially
> your
> > target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
> > combination is right for you.
> >
> > Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following
> combinations:
> > JAWS/Internet Explorer
> > NVDA/Firefox
> > Voiceover/Safari
> >
> > Phil.
> >
> > On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am using
> > below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me know I am in
> > right combination or not.
> >> 1. Chrome With NVDA
> >> 2. Edge With Narrator
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Sreekar.
> >>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Philip Kiff < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 21:20:06 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> > (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern
> > browser that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine[....]
> Not Webkit, I meant Blink - the Chrome rendering engine that Edge is now
> using.
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-09-20 21:14, Philip Kiff wrote:
> >> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> >> infrastructure in early 2020?
> > Mmm. Good point, but is IE really disappearing in 2020?
> >
> > Like I say, I'm not really on top of the current news on this - I only
> > replied to this thread initially in order not to leave Sreekar in the
> > lurch without any responses. There are many folks on this list who
> > know considerably more than me about the state of screen readers and
> > browsers.
> >
> > But is IE really disappearing? There are still tons and tons of
> > intranets and custom applications that have been coded poorly and will
> > only work on IE. Those aren't going to disappear in 2020. I thought
> > that what Microsoft was planning on doing was somehow magically
> > incorporating an IE 11 emulator into Edge in order to guarantee that
> > all those crappy intranets will still work for several more years
> > while systems folk around the world scramble to recode what should
> > have never been coded in the first place, or to create replacements
> > that are written in proper, acceptable standards-compliant and
> > somewhat-accessible code.
> >
> > Aren't they even going to keep supporting IE 11 as an Enterprise
> > product for a while?
> >
> > If both those are true, then whether you call it Edge or IE 11, there
> > will be lots of sites that still have to work with it? But like I say,
> > I'm not sure if all that is true?
> >
> > (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern
> > browser that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine and
> > some crazy IE 11 emulator, then someone over in their coding dept.
> > will deserve considerable praise. But I wonder if all that will really
> > be possible.... :-)
> >
> > Phil.
> >
> > On 2019-09-20 17:25, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
> >> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> >> infrastructure in early 2020?
> >>
> >> Just curious. Here's what I test with:
> >> Safari on IOS, and OSX
> >> NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
> >> JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> >> Philip Kiff
> >> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:12 AM
> >> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> >>
> >> Hi Sreekar,
> >>
> >> The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics
> >> have been
> >> covered before:
> >> https://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>
> >> There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
> >> readers and browsers, for e.g.:
> >> Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
> >> https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread†98
> >>
> >> The best combination depends on several factors - including
> >> especially your
> >> target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
> >> combination is right for you.
> >>
> >> Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following
> >> combinations:
> >> JAWS/Internet Explorer
> >> NVDA/Firefox
> >> Voiceover/Safari
> >>
> >> Phil.
> >>
> >> On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
> >>> Hi All,
> >>>
> >>> Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am using
> >> below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me know I am in
> >> right combination or not.
> >>> 1. Chrome With NVDA
> >>> 2. Edge With Narrator
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Sreekar.
> >>>
> > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Philip Kiff < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 21:52:08 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> Another quick follow-up.
>
> > Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> > infrastructure in early 2020?
> I think you're confusing the end of IE 10 with the end of IE 11. A
> little web searching reminded me that MS has said that they will support
> IE 11 though the life of the operating system it shipped with. Which
> means that we'll still have IE 11 *years* from now, since it shipped
> with Windows 10 (?). IE 10 is end-of-life in January 2020. I think we'll
> find that many, many JAWS users continue to use IE 11 for several more
> years. That's what they know, and that's what works. Why would they
> change if they don't have to? Though I expect the market share to
> decrease - especially as NVDA takes over as an incredibly hard-to-resist
> free option.
>
> I'll be interested to see the current state of browsers + screen readers
> as reflected in the new WebAIM survey results due out soon!
>
> Phil.
>
> On 2019-09-20 21:20, Philip Kiff wrote:
> >> (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern
> >> browser that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine[....]
> > Not Webkit, I meant Blink - the Chrome rendering engine that Edge is
> > now using.
> >
> > Phil.
> >
> > On 2019-09-20 21:14, Philip Kiff wrote:
> >>> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> >>> infrastructure in early 2020?
> >> Mmm. Good point, but is IE really disappearing in 2020?
> >>
> >> Like I say, I'm not really on top of the current news on this - I
> >> only replied to this thread initially in order not to leave Sreekar
> >> in the lurch without any responses. There are many folks on this list
> >> who know considerably more than me about the state of screen readers
> >> and browsers.
> >>
> >> But is IE really disappearing? There are still tons and tons of
> >> intranets and custom applications that have been coded poorly and
> >> will only work on IE. Those aren't going to disappear in 2020. I
> >> thought that what Microsoft was planning on doing was somehow
> >> magically incorporating an IE 11 emulator into Edge in order to
> >> guarantee that all those crappy intranets will still work for several
> >> more years while systems folk around the world scramble to recode
> >> what should have never been coded in the first place, or to create
> >> replacements that are written in proper, acceptable
> >> standards-compliant and somewhat-accessible code.
> >>
> >> Aren't they even going to keep supporting IE 11 as an Enterprise
> >> product for a while?
> >>
> >> If both those are true, then whether you call it Edge or IE 11, there
> >> will be lots of sites that still have to work with it? But like I
> >> say, I'm not sure if all that is true?
> >>
> >> (And indeed, if Microsoft manages to actually pull off a modern
> >> browser that can smoothly switch between a Webkit rendering engine
> >> and some crazy IE 11 emulator, then someone over in their coding
> >> dept. will deserve considerable praise. But I wonder if all that will
> >> really be possible.... :-)
> >>
> >> Phil.
> >>
> >> On 2019-09-20 17:25, David Engebretson Jr. wrote:
> >>> Is JAWS and IE relevant anymore since IE will be poofed out of the MS
> >>> infrastructure in early 2020?
> >>>
> >>> Just curious. Here's what I test with:
> >>> Safari on IOS, and OSX
> >>> NVDA with Firefox and Chrome
> >>> JAWS with Firefox, Chrome, and Edge
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> David
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> >>> Philip Kiff
> >>> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 10:12 AM
> >>> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Browser and Screen Reader Combination
> >>>
> >>> Hi Sreekar,
> >>>
> >>> The WebAIM list has a search function you can use to see if topics
> >>> have been
> >>> covered before:
> >>> https://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>>
> >>> There have been many discussions about the best combinations of screen
> >>> readers and browsers, for e.g.:
> >>> Thread: Screen Reader Version & Browser Version Combination Matrix
> >>> https://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread†98
> >>>
> >>> The best combination depends on several factors - including
> >>> especially your
> >>> target audience and what capacity you have for testing. Maybe your
> >>> combination is right for you.
> >>>
> >>> Lots of folks seem to test with two or three of the following
> >>> combinations:
> >>> JAWS/Internet Explorer
> >>> NVDA/Firefox
> >>> Voiceover/Safari
> >>>
> >>> Phil.
> >>>
> >>> On 2019-09-20 12:52, Praunicorn wrote:
> >>>> Hi All,
> >>>>
> >>>> Kindly help me with Browser and Screen Reader combination. I am using
> >>> below mentioned combinations for my testing. Please let me know I am in
> >>> right combination or not.
> >>>> 1. Chrome With NVDA
> >>>> 2. Edge With Narrator
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Sreekar.
> >>>>
> >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 13:01:25 +0000
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an
> effect?
> Recently, I have seen a couple of instances where JavaScript is being used
> to control the focus order, so it does not follow the sequence you would
> expect from inspecting the DOM. In one case it was causing a keyboard trap
> that had us baffled for a while.
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Bim Egan
> Sent: 20 September 2019 19:48
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an
> effect?
>
> Hi Steve,
> Sorry it's a test environment I've had to be white listed. I could redact
> the code let you see the HTML for that part of the page, but at doesn't
> actually help much if JavaScript is doing the damage.
> Like you I've seen some very odd mark up, but this one has me Foxed.
>
> Bim
>
> > On 20 Sep 2019, at 19:03, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
> >
> > There are any number of reasons why the sub menu links can't be reached,
> but I would not expect aria-controls to be one of them. We would need to
> see the code to figure it out - can you share the URL? We spend a lot of
> time trying to understand the increasingly crazy code that we're presented
> with these days, but there's always an answer.
> >
> > Steve Green
> > Managing Director
> > Test Partners Ltd
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> > Bim Egan
> > Sent: 20 September 2019 12:33
> > To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Subject: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an
> effect?
> >
> > Good afternoon all,
> >
> > I'm testing a mega menu that doesn't appear to be working properly, and
> I can't figure out why.
> >
> > The large screen view has a horizontal menu that is working, but when
> it gets to small screen and the hamburger menu button appears, the sub menu
> links can't be reached.
> >
> > The menu button has an aria-controls attribute that matches the
> > sub-menu id, but when the menu button is activated, there's more
> > revealed than just the sub-menu. The devs have inserted a search field
> > and button between the (now
> > "close") button and the sub-menu. My expectation was to move from the
> search button to the first sub-menu item, but instead it moves into main
> content.
> >
> > HeydonWorks article seems to suggest that aria-controls could cause some
> problems in this situation, but he doesn't go into detail.
> > https://www.heydonworks.com/article/aria-controls-is-poop
> >
> > So can anyone tell me if the problem will be solved if the devs move the
> mobile version search out of the dropdown or what can be done to bring the
> mobile sub-menu into the tab order?
> >
> > Many thanks,
> >
> > Bim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------
> > Bim Egan
> > Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
> > Personal Email: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > Skype ID: bim.accessequals
> >
> > Coordinator: Describe Online
> > W: www.describe-online.com
> > E: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Partner: AccessEquals
> > W: www.accessequals.com
> > E: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >
> > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Birkir R. Gunnarsson" < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:33:32 -0400
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an
> effect?
> aria-controls alone should not affect anything in the underlying code,
> not even content order, but "should" is the operative word here, there
> are some crazy things going on in the work of web content markup.
> If you turn the screen reader off and retest, or force screen reader
> into application/forms mode, are you able to reach the menu?
>
>
> On 9/21/19, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> > Recently, I have seen a couple of instances where JavaScript is being
> used
> > to control the focus order, so it does not follow the sequence you would
> > expect from inspecting the DOM. In one case it was causing a keyboard
> trap
> > that had us baffled for a while.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Bim
> > Egan
> > Sent: 20 September 2019 19:48
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an
> > effect?
> >
> > Hi Steve,
> > Sorry it's a test environment I've had to be white listed. I could redact
> > the code let you see the HTML for that part of the page, but at doesn't
> > actually help much if JavaScript is doing the damage.
> > Like you I've seen some very odd mark up, but this one has me Foxed.
> >
> > Bim
> >
> >> On 20 Sep 2019, at 19:03, Steve Green < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> There are any number of reasons why the sub menu links can't be reached,
> >> but I would not expect aria-controls to be one of them. We would need to
> >> see the code to figure it out - can you share the URL? We spend a lot of
> >> time trying to understand the increasingly crazy code that we're
> presented
> >> with these days, but there's always an answer.
> >>
> >> Steve Green
> >> Managing Director
> >> Test Partners Ltd
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> >> Bim Egan
> >> Sent: 20 September 2019 12:33
> >> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> Subject: [WebAIM] Focus order issue ... Could Aria-controls have an
> >> effect?
> >>
> >> Good afternoon all,
> >>
> >> I'm testing a mega menu that doesn't appear to be working properly, and
> I
> >> can't figure out why.
> >>
> >> The large screen view has a horizontal menu that is working, but when
> it
> >> gets to small screen and the hamburger menu button appears, the sub menu
> >> links can't be reached.
> >>
> >> The menu button has an aria-controls attribute that matches the
> >> sub-menu id, but when the menu button is activated, there's more
> >> revealed than just the sub-menu. The devs have inserted a search field
> >> and button between the (now
> >> "close") button and the sub-menu. My expectation was to move from the
> >> search button to the first sub-menu item, but instead it moves into main
> >> content.
> >>
> >> HeydonWorks article seems to suggest that aria-controls could cause some
> >> problems in this situation, but he doesn't go into detail.
> >> https://www.heydonworks.com/article/aria-controls-is-poop
> >>
> >> So can anyone tell me if the problem will be solved if the devs move the
> >> mobile version search out of the dropdown or what can be done to bring
> the
> >> mobile sub-menu into the tab order?
> >>
> >> Many thanks,
> >>
> >> Bim
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -------------
> >> Bim Egan
> >> Skype phone: 01223 96 87 96
> >> Personal Email: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> Skype ID: bim.accessequals
> >>
> >> Coordinator: Describe Online
> >> W: www.describe-online.com
> >> E: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >> ----------------------------------------
> >> Partner: AccessEquals
> >> W: www.accessequals.com
> >> E: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> >>
> >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > > > > > archives at
> > http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > > > >
>
>
> --
> Work hard. Have fun. Make history.
>
> > > > >