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Re: Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?

for

From: Ilana Gordon
Date: May 27, 2020 3:18PM

Agree so completely!

Ilana

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 5:11 PM L Snider < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> What I have been wondering since Acrobat came out with the Z-Order and Tags
> in the dark ages, why the heck are they still separate in 2020? Can someone
> enlighten me on why PDFs have to have so many layers, and why they can't be
> converted to one layer...so we just remediate one layer? I am getting
> increasingly frustrated with tech from the 2000s...
>
> Cheers
>
> Lisa
>
> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Rayius < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Ilana,
> > There's often a lot of question/ debate about this. When it comes to PDF
> > standards (both ISO 32000 and PDF/UA, as well as WCAG 2.0 and 2.1)
> they're
> > all quite clear that the reading order in a PDF shall be determined by
> the
> > order of the tags. (To be more clear, WCAG doesn't specify the reading
> > order "rules" for PDF but does provide some guidance in the WCAG
> > Techniques.)
> >
> > The confusion comes into play because some assistive technologies don't
> > actually follow the standards and so they'll read content from "other
> > areas" in a PDF - for example from the Content and or "Z-Order" pane in
> > Acrobat. (The "Z-Order" pane is the one labeled "Order" but many people
> > call it the "Z-Order" because of the "Z" in the icon.)
> >
> > The problem, however, is that as accessible document creators and/or
> > remediators, we can't possibly be called on to remediate according to
> how a
> > particular processor or AT will handle a PDF. In fact, to that point,
> one
> > of the great things about WCAG is that it's intended for accessibility
> > while being technology independent. Personally, I think it's time for
> PDF
> > processors and AT developers to be held accountable and that their
> products
> > should adhere to the standards that are not only available but also
> > achievable. But, that's my soapbox.
> >
> > I hope this helps to clarify, though, that the reading order in a PDF is
> > to be determined by the order of the Tags and not the "Z-Order."
> >
> > Best,
> > Paul
> >
> > Paul Rayius
> > Director of Training
> > CommonLook
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> > Ilana Gordon
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 12:56 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> >
> > I wish they had a checklist. They are a moving target and keep asking for
> > things that seem over the top and in additional to the HHS checklist.
> >
> > Ilana
> >
> > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:46 PM Ryan E. Benson < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Are you talking to the agency 508 Coordinator directly, or somebody
> else?
> > > Does the agency have a checklist?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ryan E. Benson
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:23 PM Ilana Gordon
> > > < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I should clarify that this is specifically for PDFs. And some
> > > > government employee says it's a requirements.
> > > >
> > > > Ilana
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:17 PM Steve Green <
> > > > <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Who is saying it's absolutely necessary? I can see how it might
> > > > > cause accessibility issues when the layout of pages change as they
> > > > > are
> > > zoomed,
> > > > > but it's by no means inevitable.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said, I tend to regard the presence of "z-index" attributes
> > > > > as a warning that there might be other nastiness because it
> > > > > suggests the
> > > > design
> > > > > is fundamentally flawed. It's the same as when you see positive
> > > > "tabindex"
> > > > > attributes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve Green
> > > > > Managing Director
> > > > > Test Partners Ltd
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On
> > > > > Behalf Of Ilana Gordon
> > > > > Sent: 27 May 2020 16:58
> > > > > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > > > > Subject: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> > > > >
> > > > > Can the group weigh in on the latest techniques and efficacy
> > > > > regarding Z-Order and Tag Order having to match and why this would
> > > > > be absolutely necessary for Accessibility?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm having many discussions with government 508 officers going
> > > > > around
> > > in
> > > > > circles regarding this issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any info is appreciated.
> > > > > Ilana
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Ilana Gordon
> > > > > CEO
> > > > > Word Wizards, Inc
> > > > > 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > > > > Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > > > > *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > > > > *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > > > > www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > archives
> > > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ilana Gordon
> > > > CEO
> > > > Word Wizards, Inc
> > > > 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > > > Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > > > *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > > > *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > > > www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ilana Gordon
> > CEO
> > Word Wizards, Inc
> > 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > > > > at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >


--
Ilana Gordon
CEO
Word Wizards, Inc
8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
Silver Spring, MD 20910
*v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
*Direct: 240-380-2639*
www.wordwizardsinc.com