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Re: Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?

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From: L Snider
Date: May 28, 2020 5:53AM

Hi Duff,

Unfortunately I know all about these layers, but there is still no reason.
There is no reason to have multiple layers, what you see should be what you
get...whether you print, tag or whatever...This is partially why, in my
personal opinion, PDFs are still inaccessible. 90% of the ones I have seen
since 2000 are a problem in some way, and most in major ways. Plus tags are
just one aspect of PDFs, people will all sorts of disabilities use PDFs as
you know well.

I gave up on Adobe, they moved forward for a long, long time and the last
10 years they moved backward. Not in InDesign, InDesign is amazing and
kudos to whoever worked on the accessibility aspect of it, now if they
could move back those people to PDF we might get back to where PDF
was...Microsoft has been kicking butt in terms of accessibility the last 5
years, so maybe one day Adobe will follow suit.

I am now trying to find other PDF creation programs and convince them to do
better, may have a shot!

Cheers

Lisa

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 7:48 PM Duff Johnson < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:

> Hi Lisa,
>
> Content order and logical reading order are "separate" in PDF because the
> technology is obliged to represent content for different purposes.
> Rendering (e.g., printing) is a different purpose than accessibility, for
> example, and often requires ordering of content for processing purposes
> that differs from logical reading order. PDF was originally designed for
> maximum fidelity in print. Accessibility considerations were only addressed
> in 2000 with the addition of the Tagged PDF feature to the format.
>
> In 2020 the difficulty is not in the format but in the software.
> Unfortunately it remains the case that...
> PDF viewer developers don't do a great job of supporting tagged PDF in
> many cases. This is simply a business decision.
> Users continue to use software that doesn't understand tagged PDF instead
> of seeking out and demanding better.
> Authors continue to author content without consideration for semantics
> (e.g., use tab stops instead of table structures, etc.)
> I'll beat my usual drum once again: if you want better PDF support,
> complain to those who make your software. Demand better support for Tagged
> PDF. In 2020 there's simply no excuse.
>
> Duff.
>
> > On May 27, 2020, at 18:30, Paul Rayius < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> > As per ISO 32000, one of the intents of PDF is that the "accessible
> layer" and the visual layer are independent of each other.
> >
> > Paul Rayius
> > Director of Training
> > CommonLook
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of
> Ilana Gordon
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 5:19 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> >
> > Agree so completely!
> >
> > Ilana
> >
> > On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 5:11 PM L Snider < <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
> >
> >> What I have been wondering since Acrobat came out with the Z-Order and
> >> Tags in the dark ages, why the heck are they still separate in 2020?
> >> Can someone enlighten me on why PDFs have to have so many layers, and
> >> why they can't be converted to one layer...so we just remediate one
> >> layer? I am getting increasingly frustrated with tech from the 2000s...
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Lisa
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 3:36 PM Paul Rayius < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Ilana,
> >>> There's often a lot of question/ debate about this. When it comes
> >>> to PDF standards (both ISO 32000 and PDF/UA, as well as WCAG 2.0 and
> >>> 2.1)
> >> they're
> >>> all quite clear that the reading order in a PDF shall be determined
> >>> by
> >> the
> >>> order of the tags. (To be more clear, WCAG doesn't specify the
> >>> reading order "rules" for PDF but does provide some guidance in the
> >>> WCAG
> >>> Techniques.)
> >>>
> >>> The confusion comes into play because some assistive technologies
> >>> don't actually follow the standards and so they'll read content from
> >>> "other areas" in a PDF - for example from the Content and or
> >>> "Z-Order" pane in Acrobat. (The "Z-Order" pane is the one labeled
> >>> "Order" but many people call it the "Z-Order" because of the "Z" in
> >>> the icon.)
> >>>
> >>> The problem, however, is that as accessible document creators and/or
> >>> remediators, we can't possibly be called on to remediate according
> >>> to
> >> how a
> >>> particular processor or AT will handle a PDF. In fact, to that
> >>> point,
> >> one
> >>> of the great things about WCAG is that it's intended for
> >>> accessibility while being technology independent. Personally, I
> >>> think it's time for
> >> PDF
> >>> processors and AT developers to be held accountable and that their
> >> products
> >>> should adhere to the standards that are not only available but also
> >>> achievable. But, that's my soapbox.
> >>>
> >>> I hope this helps to clarify, though, that the reading order in a
> >>> PDF is to be determined by the order of the Tags and not the "Z-Order."
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> Paul Rayius
> >>> Director of Training
> >>> CommonLook
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
> >>> Of Ilana Gordon
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 12:56 PM
> >>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >>> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> >>>
> >>> I wish they had a checklist. They are a moving target and keep
> >>> asking for things that seem over the top and in additional to the HHS
> checklist.
> >>>
> >>> Ilana
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:46 PM Ryan E. Benson
> >>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Are you talking to the agency 508 Coordinator directly, or
> >>>> somebody
> >> else?
> >>>> Does the agency have a checklist?
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Ryan E. Benson
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:23 PM Ilana Gordon
> >>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I should clarify that this is specifically for PDFs. And some
> >>>>> government employee says it's a requirements.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ilana
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:17 PM Steve Green <
> >>>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Who is saying it's absolutely necessary? I can see how it
> >>>>>> might cause accessibility issues when the layout of pages
> >>>>>> change as they are
> >>>> zoomed,
> >>>>>> but it's by no means inevitable.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> That said, I tend to regard the presence of "z-index"
> >>>>>> attributes as a warning that there might be other nastiness
> >>>>>> because it suggests the
> >>>>> design
> >>>>>> is fundamentally flawed. It's the same as when you see
> >>>>>> positive
> >>>>> "tabindex"
> >>>>>> attributes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Steve Green
> >>>>>> Managing Director
> >>>>>> Test Partners Ltd
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On
> >>>>>> Behalf Of Ilana Gordon
> >>>>>> Sent: 27 May 2020 16:58
> >>>>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> >
> >>>>>> Subject: [WebAIM] Z-Order and Tag Order Need to Match?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Can the group weigh in on the latest techniques and efficacy
> >>>>>> regarding Z-Order and Tag Order having to match and why this
> >>>>>> would be absolutely necessary for Accessibility?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm having many discussions with government 508 officers going
> >>>>>> around
> >>>> in
> >>>>>> circles regarding this issue.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Any info is appreciated.
> >>>>>> Ilana
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Ilana Gordon
> >>>>>> CEO
> >>>>>> Word Wizards, Inc
> >>>>>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> >>>>>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> >>>>>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> >>>>>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> >>>>>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> List
> >>>> archives
> >>>>>> at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Ilana Gordon
> >>>>> CEO
> >>>>> Word Wizards, Inc
> >>>>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> >>>>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> >>>>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> >>>>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> >>>>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>>>> > >>>>>
> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>>> > >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Ilana Gordon
> >>> CEO
> >>> Word Wizards, Inc
> >>> 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> >>> Silver Spring, MD 20910
> >>> *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> >>> *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> >>> www.wordwizardsinc.com
> >>> > >>> > >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >>> > >>>
> >> > >> > >> archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> >> > >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ilana Gordon
> > CEO
> > Word Wizards, Inc
> > 8609 2nd Avenue, Unit 406-B
> > Silver Spring, MD 20910
> > *v.*301-986-0808 *fax.*301-986-0809
> > *Direct: 240-380-2639*
> > www.wordwizardsinc.com
> > > > > archives at http://webaim.org/discussion/archives
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >