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Re: -AccessiBe! Help!!

for

From: Greg Jellin
Date: May 26, 2022 11:11AM

Thanks for the clarification Andy. I misread your original statement.

Greg

On 5/26/2022 9:50 AM, Andy Andrews wrote:
> Hey Greg,
>
> I don't think it turns off the screen reader. However, since the overly automatically turns on when it detects a screen reader is being used, the user has to use their screen reader to navigate to the AccessiBe overlay if they want to turn it off and use their screen reader the way they prefer to use it. In all other cases the user can turn on one of the overlays by choice, not force.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Greg Jellin
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 9:38 AM
> To: <EMAIL REMOVED>
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] [EXTERNAL] - Re: AccessiBe! Help!!
>
> @Andy, does it really turn off some screen readers? Which ones? I just tested with JAWS and it didn't turn off. I'm not sure how they could access an application outside of the browser with JavaScript.
>
> "I agree with what Doug has mentioned. I would add that one of the many issues with this product is that it automatically detects a screen reader and turns the product on without any prompting from the user. Basically accessible is forcing them to use this product until they can navigate to turn it off. That is a good way to piss someone off enough to never come back to your site if they don't need to."
>
> On 5/26/2022 8:58 AM, Sandy Feldman wrote:
>> "It would make more sense to hire a panel of people who use various
>> forms of assistive technology and have them provide feedback on the
>> non-overlay site as to what they would like to see changed to make the
>> site meet their needs."
>>
>> That's actually what happened when the site was developed. IMAGE Center clients got their say in how the site worked and I made changes so that people could use it the way they liked. And now this. I can't even.
>>
>> Thank you for helping to articulate the case against it. Wish us luck.
>> Sandy
>>
>> sandyfeldman.com <https://sandyfeldman.com> a11yready.com
>> <https://www.a11yready.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2022-05-26 11:48 a.m., Hayman, Douglass wrote:
>>> Sandy,
>>>
>>> Like Andy mentioned, something that interferes with someone's screen reader creates a bad experience.
>>>
>>> We wouldn't propose that a full time user of a customized power wheelchair leave that at the door of a grocery store and instead use that one-sized-suits-all motorized chair in the store. While the customized chair is suited to the person's body, may use head controlled or other navigation, could have left or right handed joystick and so on, screen reader users make choices on a whole variety of things. The idea of making it to this web site without a screen reader and then chancing upon “oh good, they offer a screen reader” is far-fetched. And some of these overlay firms give you the choice to turn such features off or hide them.
>>>
>>> Those who rely upon screen readers would likely do something more system-wide if they were without their screen reader like in the case of using somebody else's machine. They might toggle on narrator in Windows or Voiceover on macOS and proceed from there to make do without their preferred assistive technology.
>>>
>>> I primarily use Chrome as my web browser and have AccessiByeBy enabled to hide such overlays, only toggling that off to do things like looking at your site with the overlay in action.
>>>
>>> It would make more sense to hire a panel of people who use various forms of assistive technology and have them provide feedback on the non-overlay site as to what they would like to see changed to make the site meet their needs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Doug Hayman
>>> IT Accessibility Coordinator
>>> Information Technology
>>> Olympic College
>>> <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>> (360) 475-7632
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: WebAIM-Forum< <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf
>>> Of Sandy Feldman
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 8:34 AM
>>> To: WebAIM Discussion List< <EMAIL REMOVED> >; Ryan E.
>>> Benson< <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] - Re: [WebAIM] AccessiBe! Help!!
>>>
>>> CAUTION: This email came from a non-OC system or external source. Beware of phishing and social engineering!
>>>
>>>
>>> A lot of this site's users use assistive technology. The site owner is a JAWS user. I think examples are key in making the point.
>>>
>>> I think if we can show that things are worse we can turn this thing off.
>>> Sandy
>>>
>>> sandyfeldman.com<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url>>> https%3A%2F%2Fsandyfeldman.com%2F&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40olympic.ed
>>> u%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1bad4f21ccc30
>>> 85%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wL
>>> jAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C
>>> &sdata=Vr0PZStHSb2HKdkQ7akwpVnCggo94P7knlWwCyhXK04%3D&reserved=0>
>>> a11yready.com<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=htt
>>> ps%3A%2F%2Fwww.a11yready.com%2F&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40olympic.edu%
>>> 7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1bad4f21ccc3085
>>> %7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjA
>>> wMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&s
>>> data=gXNKFs85cYNe%2Fkv3kEuB7r5fwcKEcqa4a83k2EBApKE%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> On 2022-05-26 11:20 a.m., Ryan E. Benson wrote:
>>>
>>> Unless they understand assistive technology, I'm fearful that
>>> examples
>>>
>>> would not work. AccessiBe has been in a few lawsuits, so showing that
>>> might
>>>
>>> be the best way to go about it. Karl groves made his testimony in a
>>> case
>>>
>>> public.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Ryan E. Benson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 26, 2022, 11:04 AM Sandy Feldman< <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Catherine, thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have seen those, and passed them along. They aren't helping. What I
>>>
>>> really need is examples specific to this site of things going wrong.
>>>
>>> Sandy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sandyfeldman.com
>>>
>>> a11yready.com<https://www.a11yready.com/><https://nam12.safelinks.pro
>>> tection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.a11yready.com%2F&data%7
>>> C01%7Cdhayman%40olympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3a8d%7C5089
>>> 378aab1544c0b1bad4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7CUnknown%7
>>> CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJX
>>> VCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gXNKFs85cYNe%2Fkv3kEuB7r5fwcKEcqa4a8
>>> 3k2EBApKE%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2022-05-26 10:57 a.m., Catherine Roy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Sandy,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Have you seen these resources?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://overlayfactsheet.com/<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outl
>>> ook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Foverlayfactsheet.com%2F&data%7C01%7Cdha
>>> yman%40olympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3a8d%7C5089378aab154
>>> 4c0b1bad4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZs
>>> b3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3
>>> D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ru5RXmriDZj9ADS0MFEynXblPnvOM37trOvo1DtcFwU%3
>>> D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://accessibleweb.com/web-accessibility-news/do-away-with-overlay
>>> s/<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F
>>> accessibleweb.com%2Fweb-accessibility-news%2Fdo-away-with-overlays%2F
>>> &data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40olympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3
>>> a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1bad4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7
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>>> kBJsP54XPBSjnWGn0%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.essentialaccessibility.com/blog/the-many-pitfalls-of-acce
>>> ssibility-overlays<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?ur
>>> l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.essentialaccessibility.com%2Fblog%2Fthe-many-pitf
>>> alls-of-accessibility-overlays&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40olympic.edu%7
>>> C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1bad4f21ccc3085%
>>> 7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAw
>>> MDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sd
>>> ata=IiXT0%2FCL9ITT%2Fia%2BayR%2F3O3FYHMjC3QXGuisRTrVFZ4%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>>
>>> HTH,
>>>
>>> Catherine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Catherine Roy
>>>
>>> www.catherine-roy.net<;https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/
>>> ?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.catherine-roy.net%2F&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40o
>>> lympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1bad
>>> 4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJW
>>> IjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000
>>> %7C%7C%7C&sdata=AweFinZyvTRm%2BWM0mNru4Yn1tnyNRj4g90M8hevWeHE%3D&rese
>>> rved=0>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 26, 2022, at 10:46 AM, Nathan
>>> Clark< <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>
>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Sandy,
>>>
>>> That should not be to difficult knowing how bad their overlay thing works.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Nathan Clark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/26/22, Sandy
>>> Feldman< <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>
>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nate, thanks - but it didn't work! We need to provide actual examples
>>> from
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> the site.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sandy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sandyfeldman.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> a11yready.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2022-05-26 10:16 a.m., Nathan Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just tell them that disability rights organizations like the National
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Federation of the Blind have spoken out against Accessibee and they
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> don't suggest any company using them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nate
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/26/22, Sandy
>>> Feldman< <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>
>>> < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> hey all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd really appreciate your help with this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A client has been pressured into adding AccessiBe to their site
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> imagemd.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We have a version without the overlay dev.imagemd.org/. What I'm
>>> hoping
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> is
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> you guys find things AccessiBe makes worse and we can justify
>>> disabling
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you so much!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sandy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sandyfeldman.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> a11yready.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Nathan Clark
>>>
>>> QA Automation Analyst Tech team
>>>
>>> Accessibility assistant
>>>
>>> CPACC
>>>
>>> cell: 410-446-7259
>>>
>>> email: <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>
>>> 101 Village Blvd
>>>
>>> Princeton, NJ 08540
>>>
>>> SMBE & Minority Owned Business
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> visithttp://list.webaim.org/<;https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlo
>>> ok.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.webaim.org%2F&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40
>>> olympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1ba
>>> d4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
>>> WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300
>>> 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9wJuLgGV7gCvspwwKfcrtGbHqCAcsiJDhWnyLRCE0Do%3D&reser
>>> ved=0>
>>>
>>> List archives
>>> athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives<;https://nam12.safelinks.prote
>>> ction.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebaim.org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchive
>>> s&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40olympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d
>>> 3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1bad4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%
>>> 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
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>>> S%2F8YIJgPankg69HzC%2FG4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> >>> <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> visithttp://list.webaim.org/<;https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlo
>>> ok.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.webaim.org%2F&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40
>>> olympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1ba
>>> d4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
>>> WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300
>>> 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9wJuLgGV7gCvspwwKfcrtGbHqCAcsiJDhWnyLRCE0Do%3D&reser
>>> ved=0>
>>>
>>> List archives
>>> athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives<;https://nam12.safelinks.prote
>>> ction.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebaim.org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchive
>>> s&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40olympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d
>>> 3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1bad4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%
>>> 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
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>>> S%2F8YIJgPankg69HzC%2FG4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> >>> <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> visithttp://list.webaim.org/<;https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlo
>>> ok.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flist.webaim.org%2F&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40
>>> olympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1ba
>>> d4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJ
>>> WIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C300
>>> 0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9wJuLgGV7gCvspwwKfcrtGbHqCAcsiJDhWnyLRCE0Do%3D&reser
>>> ved=0>
>>>
>>> List archives
>>> athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives<;https://nam12.safelinks.prote
>>> ction.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebaim.org%2Fdiscussion%2Farchive
>>> s&data%7C01%7Cdhayman%40olympic.edu%7C75a80d01ae9341d3960e08da3f2d
>>> 3a8d%7C5089378aab1544c0b1bad4f21ccc3085%7C1%7C0%7C637891760733626392%
>>> 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I
>>> k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WD4UbKUu%2FQeJ9gUtAjGPyCZ
>>> S%2F8YIJgPankg69HzC%2FG4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> >>> <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >
>>> >>> >>> archives athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>>> >> >> >> archives athttp://webaim.org/discussion/archives
>> > > > > > > >