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Re: Providing accessible names with <title>
From: tim.harshbarger@deque.com
Date: Sep 8, 2023 7:51AM
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"</a></li> <li><strong>Next message in Thread:</strong> <a href="mail_message?id=49419">L Snider: "Re: Providing accessible names with <title>"</a></li> <li><strong>Previous message in Thread:</strong> <a href="mail_message?id=49416">Jeremy Echols: "Re: Providing accessible names with <title>"</a></li> <li><a href="mail_thread?thread=10860">View all messages in this Thread</a></li> </ul> <hr> Do we know if it works for Voiceover on Mac as well?<br /> <br /> If I were going to summarize the conversation on this, I think I might summarize it this way.<br /> <br /> The title attribute will be read by screen readers because it is part of the accessible name/description calculation. If that is the only reason it is being used, then it is a viable technique. However, there are other techniques that should be used first and it is better only to use this technique if it is the only option available to use or the only one that fits the parameters of the problem you are trying to solve.<br /> <br /> Do not use the title attribute if you are using it at all for the visible tooltip. While a screen reader might read the information and the mouse pointer will display the tooltip, it won't be displayed for anyone using a keyboard or touch to interact with the element.<br /> <br /> If you need a visible tooltip, you should look at other techniques that will make that information available whether the person is using a mouse, keyboard, touch, and screen reader.<br /> <br /> Thanks,<br /> Tim<br /> -----Original Message-----<br /> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Jeremy Echols<br /> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 5:40 PM<br /> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><br /> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Providing accessible names with <title><br /> <br /> There are a lot of sighted keyboard-only users out there who don't use things like screen readers - we use things plugins (like "vimium" and "SkipTo Landmarks and Headings") help navigate. We never see the tooltip, so having it in the accessible name but not visible is still a pretty big problem.<br /> <br /> I'm fortunate in that I can still use the mouse - it is just painful. Some can't us it at all.<br /> <br /> This is why it's important that information be visible if it conveys necessary information, not simply be part of the name calculation.<br /> <br /> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> > On Behalf Of Kevin Prince<br /> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 15:12<br /> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> ><br /> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Providing accessible names with <title><br /> <br /> Depends whether they are displaying information not available elsewhere - they are important for mouse users - but the message may be comveyed by other means (accessible name?0 for other modalities. Remember it's the function of the feature not every object on a page that needs to be accessible.<br /> Kevin Prince<br /> Product Accessibility & Usability Consultant<br /> <br /> Foster Moore<br /> A Teranet Company<br /> <br /> E <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> ><br /> Christchurch<br /> fostermoore.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.fostermoore.com/__;!!C5qS4YX3!B1JxdbWBPDUHdXfT77q7Gg9BGIpBMJjnjnZHlv_xFWyW9GO62b5wn_CfMzOlF-qkckp_cFZEe68J12_00Huuxtr6YMjZ$><br /> <br /> -----Original Message-----<br /> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >> On Behalf Of Jeremy Echols<br /> Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 4:27 AM<br /> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >><br /> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Providing accessible names with <title><br /> <br /> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization.<br /> <br /> <br /> FYI title-based tooltips are not accessible: they only display for mouse users (e.g., sighted keyboard-only users don't get anything). If they have custom JS that renders an accessible tooltip you may be fine, but if not, and those tooltips convey important information, they may in fact be non-compliant.<br /> <br /> -----Original Message-----<br /> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >> On Behalf Of Nick Bromley<br /> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 09:16<br /> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >><br /> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Providing accessible names with <title><br /> <br /> It was mainly for the tooltip, yes. These particular examples are still displaying as expected in my versions of Firefox, Chrome, Edge, plus Safari on Mac, which I think are all up to date. Are you seeing a different experience more generally?<br /> <br /> Ideally I'd recommend the client creates bespoke tooltips, but there are so many more significant issues to deal with that the request would be way, way down the priority order. So keeping 'title' retains at least some benefit for now.<br /> <br /> -----Original Message-----<br /> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >> On Behalf Of Mark Magennis<br /> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 4:58 PM<br /> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >><br /> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Providing accessible names with <title><br /> <br /> Nick, when you say the <title> attribute provides some benefit for certain users, do you mean that browsers sometimes generate tooltips containing it? If so, I wouldn't refer to this as a benefit because if a button needs a tooltip, and in my opinion all icon-only buttons do need tooltips, then the browser-generated tooltip will only be displayed by some browsers and support is dwindling. It used to be only Firefox that didn't display a tooltip with the <title> but now I believe it's Chrome and Edge as well. So this isn't a reliable method of providing a benefit and if it is needed it can't really be called a benefit.<br /> <br /> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >> on behalf of Nick Bromley < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >><br /> Sent: Thursday 7 September 2023 10:35<br /> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >><br /> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [WebAIM] Providing accessible names with <title><br /> <br /> [You don't often get email from <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >. Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification__;!!C5qS4YX3!B1JxdbWBPDUHdXfT77q7Gg9BGIpBMJjnjnZHlv_xFWyW9GO62b5wn_CfMzOlF-qkckp_cFZEe68J12_00HuuxiS0_wfD$> ]<br /> <br /> I think the vast majority of the user group of this particular site are likely to be using non-ancient tech, but I think I'll still log a recommendation to update the naming approach while still retaining the <title> attribute as it does provide some benefit for certain users. Good point about use of hidden text.<br /> <br /> -----Original Message-----<br /> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >> On Behalf Of Steve Green<br /> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 10:20 AM<br /> To: WebAIM Discussion List < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >><br /> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Providing accessible names with <title><br /> <br /> The "title" attribute has been part of the Accessible Name Computation for a long time, so all user agents should use it if an accessible name is not provided by a higher priority method. It's certainly sufficient for WCAG conformance, even if it's a bit nasty.<br /> <br /> I don't know of any assistive technologies that don't use the "title" attribute if necessary. There might be some, but now we're returning to the age old question of whether we need to worry about user agents that don't support current standards.<br /> <br /> I just had the same issue on a website and recommended that the accessible name should be implemented as hidden text if possible (because non-ARIA solutions should be the first choice), otherwise by an "aria-label" attribute.<br /> <br /> Steve Green<br /> Managing Director<br /> Test Partners Ltd<br /> <br /> <br /> -----Original Message-----<br /> From: WebAIM-Forum < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >> On Behalf Of Nick Bromley<br /> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2023 10:02 AM<br /> To: 'WebAIM Discussion List' < <EMAIL REMOVED> <mailto: <EMAIL REMOVED> >><br /> Subject: [WebAIM] Providing accessible names with <title><br /> <br /> I'm testing a site that has a whole load of icon-based buttons that are named only with the <title> attribute. I know this isn't considered a good method of providing an accessible name, but it works across multiple browsers, devices, screen readers, and voice control software (although all reasonably modern, it has to be said). So when the W3C states in its <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/practices/names-and-descriptions/<https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/practices/names-and-descriptions/>><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/practices/names-and-descriptions/*3Chttps:/*www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/practices/names-and-descriptions/*3E*3E__;JS8lJQ!!C5qS4YX3!B1JxdbWBPDUHdXfT77q7Gg9BGIpBMJjnjnZHlv_xFWyW9GO62b5wn_CfMzOlF-qkckp_cFZEe68J12_00Huuxp4LbiEs$><br /> 'Providing Accessible Names and Descriptions' authoring practice guidance that fallback mechanisms (of which <title> is one) "typically yield low quality accessible names that are not effective", is there anything I'm missing? Perhaps some more niche assistive technologies that I haven't verified it with? Or does it date back to a time when support was more patchy?<br /> <br /> I'm minded to log a best practice recommendation to use aria-label instead, but could do with a bit more specific justification, if any exists.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> - - -<br /> <br /> Nick Bromley<br /> <br /> Director & Accessibility Consultant<br /> <br /> Red Kite Digital Accessibility Ltd<br /> <br /> List archives at <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwebaim.org*2Fdiscussion*2Farchives&data*7C01*7CMark.Magennis*40skillsoft.com*7C81a07cca379b4f8464f908dbaf85c6ae*7C50361608aa23494da2332fd14d6a03f4*7C0*7C0*7C638296761343993421*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C&sdata:WElvLojj91fS6BBvGmlaraL9xwUETYStXv*2BOrh054*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!C5qS4YX3!DgOx82N_ccwM49dta3ozGJfeqrSBaXKWxuxIXIttrd5LuJhu2tW2MaPw96kFa5yTLMWBnKskrrnSo1us$"><a 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<title>"</a></li> <li><strong>Previous message in Thread:</strong> <a href="mail_message?id=49416">Jeremy Echols: "Re: Providing accessible names with <title>"</a></li> <li><a href="mail_thread?thread=10860&id=49417#49417">View all messages in this Thread</a></li> </ul> </div> </article> <!-- --> <aside id="articlemeta"> </aside> </main> <footer> <div id="footerresources"> <div class="footerblock"> <h2 id="copyright">©2024 WebAIM</h2> <p id="contact">Institute for Disability Research, Policy, and Practice<br> Utah State University<br> 6807 Old Main Hill<br> Logan, UT 84322-6807<br> <a class="phone" href="tel:4357977024">435.797.7024</a></p> <div id="checkpage"> <h2>Check Your Accessibility</h2> <form action="https://wave.webaim.org/report" novalidate> <label for="waveurl">Web site address:</label> <input type="url" id="waveurl" name="url" title="Web site address"> <input type="submit" value="WAVE"> </form> </div> </div> <div class="footerblock"> <h2 id="blog">From the Blog</h2> 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